Question about take down tool

rldarmstr · 01-27-2008, 07:50 AM

I am new to this forum and new to the Luger, as for as any serious knowledge is concerned, so please bear with me.

I recently had a discussion with my father about his Luger and noticed that there was a small pocket in the top of the holster, but it was empty. Looking around on the auction sites and here on this site I see that the pocket is for the disassembly or take down tool.

Naturally I decided to see if I could find one to fill that void. As I should have known, reproductions abound and then too there are the biquitous markings, none of which are familiar to me.

Can someone tell me how I might discern a real tool from a repo? Also is there any significance with regard to age, time of manufacture, or location of manufacture, of these tools?

The Luger in question here is a DWM with a 1918 date and is apparently in a Police holster ( the hoslter question I am going to verify on the Holster forum as soon as I get a picture).

Thanks in advance.

Robert

Edward Tinker · 01-27-2008, 10:04 AM

Robert, welcome if that has not been said. Is the 1918 a later rework and is police sear safety? Males a difference in what you are trying to do/

Yes, the FAQ has info on real vs repro tooks, in addition to the search function of this site:

I have moved this question to New Collectors, as the repairs area seemed out of place

http://forum.lugerforum.com/forumdis...s=&forumid=133

Ed

rldarmstr · 01-27-2008, 11:20 AM

Ed......hello and thanks for the "welcome!".

Sorry about the miss-posting of this. I wasn't sure where it should fall and just took a chance.

Is the 1918 a later rework and is police sear safety?

The gun and holster were surrendered to my father in the spring of 1945 by a German soldier. We have no other provenance on this pistol.

He has no in deepth knowledge of Lugers and I have only slightly more.

How would I tell if this is a post 1918 re-work and how do I identify a police sear?

The FAQ's are quit good but I did not locate this information.

Thanks,

Robert

Edward Tinker · 01-27-2008, 11:30 AM

Are you looking at the right FAQ?

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...threadid=13121

25) Difference in real or fake loading tools:

Regarding your question; yes the totally reproduced tools aren't up to standards. I have posted a picture showing an original tool, on top, and two reproduced tools. Note the thickness differences and the detail on the edges. An original tool should measure 2.5 mm in thickness. This is according to military specifications. The entire tool had to made to spec, the point of the bend on top, the width of the grooves on the back the length of the tool, etc. Over or under would be cause to reject them. The other two in the attached picture are oversize. The bottom one is 3mm thick. Also note the difference in the length of the material at the bend of the tool on the bottom.

One would think that something as simple as a loading tool shouldn't provide any mysteries but that isn't the case. They have been, and continue to be, faked, boosted, enhanced, what ever. Sarco has a decent total repro tool that is selling for $5.65 unmarked and $12.50 stamped with an E/63 acceptance stamp. It isn't a bad effort, wouldn't fool the knowledgeable, but if you want a tool to stick in your tool pouch, it serves the purpose. However, while some of these tools are totally bogus, others are original blank tools that have had bogus acceptance stamps applied . I have heard reports from credible sources and have seen pictures of crates of unissued WWII vintage blank tools that were purchased in Europe after the fall of the East Block and brought into the US. Figure: using stamps that are readily available (a year or two ago, sets of WWII German proofs and numbers were advertised in Shot Gun News, either as sets or individually) and you can turn an unmarked tool into a high grade $100+ E/135, E/2 Luft, Kreigs, etc., simply with the strike of a hammer.

So what is the answer? Usually, advice that a new collector doesn't want to hear. It takes time and looking at a lot of pictures and actual tools to get a feel for what is good and what isn't. And with that said, I am certain that there are tools out there that would fool me and most other collectors. I have approx 50 tools, mixed WWII and Imperial, that for various reasons, I feel are legit, however, and there are a couple that, depending on my frame of mind, cause me to wonder. I have a half dozen or so bogus tools that I have picked up to use as a quid. A couple, I will admit, I bought thinking that they were legit.

Pictures of your pistol would show me if it had a sear safety, although this same FAQ discuesses that also

ed

rldarmstr · 01-27-2008, 01:21 PM

OK....I can tell I am going to have to get the gun and have it in hand.

I would say, from memory, that the pistol does NOT have a police safety, but will verify

Thanks for the assistance.

I will get some pictures and post more later.

Robert.

rldarmstr · 01-27-2008, 07:47 PM

I have been looking at various internet sites for these loading/take down tools.

Besides a couple that are priced as if they were made of gold, Simpsons has one that I would assume, based on the reputation of the company, is real and it is $145.

I would have thought that as long at the Luger was in production that these tools would be falling off trees. Obviously I assumed wrong.

Is $100 - $150 really the expected price range for this item?

Being a purest can get to be expensive!

MFC · 01-27-2008, 11:26 PM

Robert,
Try (Lugerdoc) on this forum. He's very reputable. Unmarked DWM tools usually sell in the $50 range depending on condition.
IIRC, almost all DWM tools were unmarked, so this would be correct for your 1918 Imperial Luger. If it was reworked for Police service, the (new) tool usually would have been numbered to the gun.
Mike C.

01-27-2008, 07:50 AM	#1
rldarmstr User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 16 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Question about take down tool I am new to this forum and new to the Luger, as for as any serious knowledge is concerned, so please bear with me. I recently had a discussion with my father about his Luger and noticed that there was a small pocket in the top of the holster, but it was empty. Looking around on the auction sites and here on this site I see that the pocket is for the disassembly or take down tool. Naturally I decided to see if I could find one to fill that void. As I should have known, reproductions abound and then too there are the biquitous markings, none of which are familiar to me. Can someone tell me how I might discern a real tool from a repo? Also is there any significance with regard to age, time of manufacture, or location of manufacture, of these tools? The Luger in question here is a DWM with a 1918 date and is apparently in a Police holster ( the hoslter question I am going to verify on the Holster forum as soon as I get a picture). Thanks in advance. Robert

01-27-2008, 10:04 AM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Robert, welcome if that has not been said. Is the 1918 a later rework and is police sear safety? Males a difference in what you are trying to do/ Yes, the FAQ has info on real vs repro tooks, in addition to the search function of this site: I have moved this question to New Collectors, as the repairs area seemed out of place http://forum.lugerforum.com/forumdis...s=&forumid=133 Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

01-27-2008, 11:30 AM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Are you looking at the right FAQ? http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...threadid=13121 25) Difference in real or fake loading tools: Regarding your question; yes the totally reproduced tools aren't up to standards. I have posted a picture showing an original tool, on top, and two reproduced tools. Note the thickness differences and the detail on the edges. An original tool should measure 2.5 mm in thickness. This is according to military specifications. The entire tool had to made to spec, the point of the bend on top, the width of the grooves on the back the length of the tool, etc. Over or under would be cause to reject them. The other two in the attached picture are oversize. The bottom one is 3mm thick. Also note the difference in the length of the material at the bend of the tool on the bottom. One would think that something as simple as a loading tool shouldn't provide any mysteries but that isn't the case. They have been, and continue to be, faked, boosted, enhanced, what ever. Sarco has a decent total repro tool that is selling for $5.65 unmarked and $12.50 stamped with an E/63 acceptance stamp. It isn't a bad effort, wouldn't fool the knowledgeable, but if you want a tool to stick in your tool pouch, it serves the purpose. However, while some of these tools are totally bogus, others are original blank tools that have had bogus acceptance stamps applied . I have heard reports from credible sources and have seen pictures of crates of unissued WWII vintage blank tools that were purchased in Europe after the fall of the East Block and brought into the US. Figure: using stamps that are readily available (a year or two ago, sets of WWII German proofs and numbers were advertised in Shot Gun News, either as sets or individually) and you can turn an unmarked tool into a high grade $100+ E/135, E/2 Luft, Kreigs, etc., simply with the strike of a hammer. So what is the answer? Usually, advice that a new collector doesn't want to hear. It takes time and looking at a lot of pictures and actual tools to get a feel for what is good and what isn't. And with that said, I am certain that there are tools out there that would fool me and most other collectors. I have approx 50 tools, mixed WWII and Imperial, that for various reasons, I feel are legit, however, and there are a couple that, depending on my frame of mind, cause me to wonder. I have a half dozen or so bogus tools that I have picked up to use as a quid. A couple, I will admit, I bought thinking that they were legit. Pictures of your pistol would show me if it had a sear safety, although this same FAQ discuesses that also ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

01-27-2008, 11:26 PM	#7
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Robert, Try (Lugerdoc) on this forum. He's very reputable. Unmarked DWM tools usually sell in the $50 range depending on condition. IIRC, almost all DWM tools were unmarked, so this would be correct for your 1918 Imperial Luger. If it was reworked for Police service, the (new) tool usually would have been numbered to the gun. Mike C. __________________ Mike C.

01-27-2008, 11:20 AM	#3
rldarmstr User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 16 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ed......hello and thanks for the "welcome!". Sorry about the miss-posting of this. I wasn't sure where it should fall and just took a chance. Is the 1918 a later rework and is police sear safety? The gun and holster were surrendered to my father in the spring of 1945 by a German soldier. We have no other provenance on this pistol. He has no in deepth knowledge of Lugers and I have only slightly more. How would I tell if this is a post 1918 re-work and how do I identify a police sear? The FAQ's are quit good but I did not locate this information. Thanks, Robert

01-27-2008, 01:21 PM	#5
rldarmstr User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 16 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	OK....I can tell I am going to have to get the gun and have it in hand. I would say, from memory, that the pistol does NOT have a police safety, but will verify Thanks for the assistance. I will get some pictures and post more later. Robert.

01-27-2008, 07:47 PM	#6
rldarmstr User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 16 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have been looking at various internet sites for these loading/take down tools. Besides a couple that are priced as if they were made of gold, Simpsons has one that I would assume, based on the reputation of the company, is real and it is $145. I would have thought that as long at the Luger was in production that these tools would be falling off trees. Obviously I assumed wrong. Is $100 - $150 really the expected price range for this item? Being a purest can get to be expensive!