DWM Commercial Survey--call for data

[Dwight Gruber]

Revised: added Finnish info request 06/29/07--DG

Since there has been some activity on this topic recently from new members, I thought I'd reinstate this headline post in order to make things a little easier to comprehend.

I am engaged in a long-term project to produce a database of known DWM Commercial Lugers and some of their important characteristics, from the 1900 Old Model guns all the way through the end of DWM production in 1929.

The database is available for download by going here: http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...threadid=14292

The data I seek is comprehensive. Here is what I am looking for:

1900 (Old Model):
*serial number
*variation
...Commercial (blank chamber)
...AE (American Eagle on chamber)
...Swiss Commercial (Swiss cross-in-starburst on chamber, c/BUG proofs)
*proof marks, left receiver and barrel
...crown over B,U,G
...no proof marks
*Swiss cross + on barrel?
*grip safety
...narrow N (extends halfway across grip strap)
...wide W (extends full width of grip strap)
*Thumb safety type
...type 1, flat-checkered
...type 2, raised-checkered
...type 3, raised-ridged (fluted)
*Where is the takedown lever numbered?
...right, round end R
...left face F
...bottom edge B
*Stamped GERMANY or not?
*Any additional noteworthy characteristics

1902:
*serial number
*variation
...Commercial (blank chamber)
...AE (American Eagle on chamber)
...Carbine
*proof marks, left receiver and barrel
...crown over B,U,G
...no proof marks
*grip safety
...narrow N (extends halfway across grip strap)
...wide W (extends full width of grip strap)
*Stamped GERMANY or not?
*Carbine stock (if present)
...one-screw or two-screw?
...matching?
*Any additional noteworthy characteristics

1906 (New Model):
*serial number
*variation
...Commercial (blank chamber)
...AE (American Eagle on chamber)
...Swiss Commercial (Swiss cross-in-starburst on chamber, c/BUG or c/N proofs)
...Navy Commercial
*proof marks, left receiver
...crown over B,U,G
...crown over N, lazy (on its side) or upright
...no proof marks
*Caliber .30 or 9mm?
*Thumb safety stamped GESICHERT or polished?
*Extractor stamped GELADEN or LOADED?
*Stamped GERMANY or not?
*long frame or short?
*thumb safety area stamped GESICHERT or SAFE?
*Any additional noteworthy characteristics or unusual variation (French, etc.)?

1908 (no stock lug):
*serial number
*proof marks, left receiver
...crown over B,U,G
...crown over N, lazy (on its side) or upright
*Stamped GERMANY or not?
*Recoil spring well spur or straight? (see http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp...archTerms=spur )
*c/X c/X c/X military proofs?
*Any additional noteworthy characteristics

20DWM (with stock lug) (previously known as 1923 Commercial) (includes 1914 Commercial variation)
*serial number
*proof marks, left receiver
...crown over N, lazy (on its side)
...crown over N, upright
*c/X c/X c/X military proofs?
*Caliber .30 or 9mm?
*Sear bar
...full-length
...relieved
*Export marked?
...GERMANY
...MADE IN GERMANY
...location of stamp
...not marked
*Chamber marked?
...none
...date
...American Eagle stamp
*A.F. Stoeger inscription?
...2-line
...3-line
*Safe/Loaded?
*Police characteristics
...sear safety
...magazine safety
...police unit mark
*Any additional noteworthy characteristics

*All 5-digit marked magazines, whether they are with a gun or not.

Alphabet Commercial (previously known as 1920 Commercial) and
29 DWM (previously known as DWM/Mauser Sneak)
*serial number, with letter suffix
*proof marks, left receiver--crown over N, upright? Cc/U?
*right receiver proofs?
*blank toggle?
*Caliber .30 or 9mm?
*Export marked?
...GERMANY
...MADE IN GERMANY
...location of stamp
...not marked
*Krieghoff Suhl back-frame marked?
*Chamber marked?
...none
...date
...American Eagle stamp
*Finnish Suome Armijnen M-23
...S.A marked left receiver
...Tikka barrel 4-inch? 5-inch?
...9mm or .30?
...unit mark grip medallion?
*A.F. Stoeger inscription?
...2-line
...3-line
*Safe/Loaded?
*Blank toggle? DWM toggle?
*Eagle/WaA right receiver proof?
*Police characteristics
...sear safety
...magazine safety
...police unit mark
*Any additional noteworthy characteristics

1920 Carbine
*Serial number (with suffix, if present)
...matching or not?
*Caliber
*Proof marks
*Barrel
...Carbine barrel
...Long barre and length
*Sight
...Carbine sight
...Artillery sight
*Grip safety?
*Forend accellerator spring?
*Frame
...long
...short
*GERMANY export mark?
*Stock matching?
*Any additional noteworthy characteristics

If anyone has a Commercial DWM Luger they have not yet reported, I'd appreciate knowing the details. Post your info here, or email me dwightg@clear.net. As usual, I will keep sources confidential if requested.

Thanks again to everybody who has sent me info so far, and thanks in advance for the new info.

--Dwight

[Michigan Gunner]

I have what I believe is a DWM 1910 Commerical Luger. The chamber is date stamped as such. The condition is very good, all matching except the mag.
which is from the same period, wooden base.

I tried to post a photo in the past but didn't get it to go.

I can give you more infromation on it if you are interested.


Regards.




Lock and Load!

[Dwight Gruber]

Michael,

Thanks for the post. A 1910 chamber date indicates that yours is a German Army Luger, not a Commercial. This can be verified by the presence of three inspection/proof stamps on the right receiver.

I'm sure that everyone will be interested in seeing your pictures, if you can't manage to post them email them to me dwightg@pacifier.com and I will post them for you.

--Dwight

[Michigan Gunner]

Dwight;

Thanks for your correct ID of my Luger. It does have the three "proofs" on the receiver.

I'll email you some photos. Even my slow modem should manage that.



Lock and Load!

[MFC]

Hi Dwight,
I sent this one to you a few months ago but still don't see it in your database.
I don't know how often you update it, but I'll send it again anyway; plus my new pride and joy.

Alphabet Comm. S# 3686 P, 30 cal., C/N upright on left of receiver and on barrel, lazy C/N on left of breechblock, GERMANY on left frame rail above takedown, GESICHERT under thumb safety, GELADEN on extractor.

Question: Do you find it odd that you only have three in your database with
the P suffix, all 36XX? I assume they made 9999 with that suffix: 1 P through 9999 P. Please set me straight if I'm wrong.

My new 100 year old:
1906 AE, S# 45165, 9mm, no proofs, GERMANY under S# on front of frame,
LOADED on extractor, polished safety area, B inside circle on barrel under S#. Barrel is matching and has halo around the S#'s.

There is a thread disscussing another 1906 9mm with a Brazilian contract barrel.

Thanks,
Mike C.

[Dwight Gruber]

Michael,

I got your pictures and will post them presently in the Military Luger section.

Mike,

Thanks for the other info. The reason for only three p suffix Alphabet Commercials is that I started keeping those numbers realatively recently, and haven't released a new version of the database in over a year.

I expect to have a new one available to download within a couple of weeks.

--Dwight

[MFC]

Dwight ,
I edited my post with more info on the 1906 AE. Didn't know if you saw it are not.
Thanks,
Mike C.

[Dwight Gruber]

Information search list revised 6/27/07

--Dwight

[Dwight Gruber]

Revised: added Finnish info request 06/29/07

--Dwight

[Ron Wood]

El Paso is pretty much the armpit of the universe for collecting Lugers?¦ if it isn't a Colt or Winchester it stirs little interest. But every now and then a miracle happens. I picked up a pretty nice very early 1900 Commercial today, #3453, C/BUG proofs, Type II thumb safety, takedown numbered on the bottom, no GERMANY stamp. Came with a decent commercial holster, sound but looks an authentic 100 years old. It is a full flap style, fully calf skin lined with a repeated/chained small leaf pattern border stamping and a brass stud closure. Looks like it might be an old Sam Meyers holster, but it has no makers mark, only 174 stamped on the belt loop. Kind of made my day!

[Dwight Gruber]

Ron,

Congratulations on a very cool find, very glad for you. Also thanks very much for the report, this thumb safety type is very informative.

--Dwight

[Dwight Gruber]

Orv Reichert is my hero! I opened up my email this afternoon and what should I find but a message from him with the key to the Dave Rivera/Dave Soracco database information! Anyone who has been following this saga knows that I have been looking for this informaton for several years.

If you are looking at a current copy of the database, know that the greyed-text conditional detail information is now confirmed as listed. The next database release will have this info as regular text, with no question.

Thanks again, Orv!

--Dwight

[lypet]

Alphabet Commercial # 2034n
proof marks, left receiver & barrel--crown over N, upright
blank toggle
Caliber .30
Export marked: GERMANY
location of stamp: Right receiver
Chamber marked: none
Extractor marked: Loaded
DWM toggle
All matching #s
Rework to like new condition.

[squint]

Alphabet Commercial
*serial number: 2183K - marked on underside of barrel and front of frame. Last 2 digits on underside of locking plate, takedown lever, and the lug underneath the rear sight. (all match)
*proof marks, left receiver, left side toggle, bottom of barrel --crown over N,
*Toggle Marked DWM
*Caliber .30
*Export marked: NO
*Chamber marked: NO
*Extractor marked GELADEN
*Any additional noteworthy characteristics

Since I don't know what's normal I will just write down everything I see:
Marked P -Underside of barrel on what appears to be a lug and a stamp just to the left of it the looks a bit like an I

On the left side grip frame there is a P half way down and a sideways H at the bottom near the bottom end of the mainspring, There is also an A on the left side of the frame between the trigger and the magazine release button. Inside the frame there is a J and what looks like a cursive n right behind the locking lug for the barrel/slide group.

The underside of the the rear part of the toggle is marked with a 3.

[mishafyodorov]

THERE IS AN ADDITION FOR YOUR CATALOG:
Alphabet Commercial (previously known as 1920 Commercial) and
29 DWM (previously known as DWM/Mauser Sneak)

*serial number, with letter suffix: 4272 n

*proof marks, left receiver--crown over N, upright? Cc/U?: YES. Crown over N

*right receiver proofs? NO

*blank toggle?

*Caliber .30 or 9mm?: .30

*Export marked? Not Marked.
...GERMANY
...MADE IN GERMANY
...location of stamp
...not marked
*Krieghoff Suhl back-frame marked? None
*Chamber marked?
...none
...date
...American Eagle stamp
*Finnish Suome Armijnen M-23
...S.A marked left receiver
...Tikka barrel 4-inch? 5-inch? 4-inch. 0.3
...9mm or .30?
...unit mark grip medallion?
*A.F. Stoeger inscription?
...2-line
...3-line
*Safe/Loaded? Yes
*Blank toggle? DWM toggle? DWM
*Eagle/WaA right receiver proof? No.
*Police characteristics
...sear safety
...magazine safety
...police unit mark
*Any additional noteworthy characteristics

[mishafyodorov]

Sorry: Add to Catalog: Serial number is 4772

[DavidJayUden]

Silly question: What makes it an " Alphabet" model?

[Edward Tinker]

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

Silly question: What makes it an " Alphabet" model?

This was the phrase that Jan Still made up, as it made more sense than the old 1920 commericial...

An alphabet luger is one with serial number and suffix like a military model from WW1, i.e. there is serials from (for example) 1966l (small L) to 1966u ; then production started with Mauser and they started the G & and then the K dates, then the 1936 dates, etc.

There were also 5 digit lugers made for the commercial market made at the same time.

Alphabet lugers are generally considered to be military and police; you have to be aware that WW1 had suffixes too and you must look close at them for proofs etc to determine which is which....

I should add this explanation to the FAQ, this is what is there now (a quick look by me)

41. All Comercial model Lugers up to the end of the war in 1918 had 5-digit serial# and lazy c/N proofs. Production ended around sn74722.

Late 1919 Commercial production started again, continuing the 5-digit serial numbering beginning around 74745. Guns have upright c/N proof. This is new designation 1920 DWM (formerly 1923 Commercial).

Mid-1921 the commercial serial# series reached 92000. DWM converted commercial production to the military convention of numbering, four digits with letter suffix. Numbering began with letter suffix i , guns have upright c/N proofs. This is new designation Alphabet Commercial (formerly 1920 Commercial). (Not all sources agree with Still about the changeover beginning at serial# 92000.)

1929 DWM production began the move to Mauser. Serial# suffixes s, t, u are produced this year under disputed circumstances. This is new designation 29 DWM (formerly Sneak).

Ed

[DavidJayUden]

Great explanation.
Thanks.

[w2ec]

20 DWM (with stock lug)
3-7/8" barrel
serial number 8289 l (that's a lower case L), located on front of frame and barrel, two digits 89 on rear of toggle, takedown pin and side plate.
proof marks = crown over N, upright on barrel, breech block and left side of frame
Toggle marked DWM
Caliber .30
Export marked MADE IN GERMANY, right side of frame
Chamber marking none
Safe/Loaded GESICHERT/GELADEN
Wood butt on magazine, no markings
Note: MADE IN GERMANY is poorly stamped and is upside down in relation to frame (ie M of MADE is at barrel end of frame)