Erfurt c/RC mark survey

Dwight Gruber · 06-12-2006, 02:16 PM

Updated 11/07/06
Most current version of the database
The Ph entries are from photographs, not all pistol views were shown and so there could be marks missing from these rerports.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A very interesting and informative discussion about the WWI Revisions-Commission and c/RC markings on Erfurt Lugers () has reminded me of the brief attempt a year or so ago here on this Forum to survey the predominance of c/RC markings, by year, on Erfurt Lugers. The discussion has got my data juices flowing, so I am resurrecting the survey in hopes of doing a proper datbase.

There have been an number of good responses, and I have mined the Forums for data (there are a surprising number of good reports). The database is complex enough that it is easiest to snapshot the spreadsheet and present it here (current as of 6/15):

You can see the kind of data I am looking for:

Year
Serial number
standard or LP (1914)

c/RC marks on:
Barrel-above inspector mark
Barrel-elsewhere

Reciever-above hardness mark
Receiver-sear bar
Receiver-elsewhere

Toggle train-breechblock
Toggle train-center toggle
Toggle train-rear toggle
Toggle train-elsewhere

Frame-trigger guard
Frame-left frame rail
Frame-elsewhere

Trigger plate-exterior
Trigger plate-trigger lever

Takedown lever

Anywhere else not specified

Since there were a number of DWM c/RC marks reported I am including them and looking for more.

Thanks very much to everyone who has responded so far. If anyone else has information to add, please post the information here or email me dwightg@pacifier.com . I will continue to update the database post every so often.

--Dwight

Augsburger · 06-13-2006, 12:32 PM

Dwight...soryy I missed this post. Here's the info on mine...

1916 Erfurt sn 2947n (standard)
c/RC right side receiver over inspection marks
c/RC front top of trigger guard

1918 Erfurt sn 5830d (standard)
c/RC right side receiver over inspection marks
c/RC over sn on rear flat side of rear toggle piece
c/RC front top of trigger guard
c/RC right side of breechblock (mark is exposed when gun assembled)

Looks like the 1918's were pieced together for production from whatever they could get their hands on as quickly as possible. Hope this helps.....Cheers....G

Dwight Gruber · 06-14-2006, 01:39 AM

I have posted the current database in a revised first post to this discussion. My thanks to everyone who has provided data so far.

--Dwight

Ron Smith · 06-14-2006, 09:47 AM

P.08 1914 Erfurt sn 963 b

C/RC Left side of barrel
C/RC Trigger guard

P.08 1917 Erfurt sn 4261g

Broken Crown

C/RC Rear toggle link
C/RC Left side of barrel
C/RC Trigger guard

thorin6 · 06-14-2006, 12:22 PM

Dwight,
Can you post a picture of the mark we are looking for. My 1917 Erfurt does not appear to have a c/RC (assuming that means a crown over the initials RC) on it, but I would like to know what the mark looks like.
thorin6

Karl · 06-14-2006, 07:59 PM

Dwight,

1911
#7686
standard of course
c/RC toggle train - center toggle
KFS

Dwight Gruber · 06-14-2006, 10:27 PM

Ron, and Karl.

Thanks very much for the info.

William,

Here is a shot of the c/RC mark, its the best one I have and not very good at that, but it should get the point across.

--Dwight

thorin6 · 06-15-2006, 10:05 PM

Year 1917
SN 9358d
Standard
c/RC above proof marks on right front of receiver
Not observed anywhere else
thorin6

Ron Wood · 06-15-2006, 10:29 PM

Dwight,

1912
#719a
Standard
C/RC Trigger Guard (tucked way up in the curve where the guard meets the frame in front...almost missed it)

I know it sounds a little cynical, but I suspect that the C/RC marks show up with increasing frequency as the war progressed largely due to bureaucracy. The inspectors needed to justify their existence and keep their jobs.

Dwight Gruber · 06-16-2006, 03:12 AM

Karl, and Ron,

Thanks much for the info.

I'm not sure that that reason is cynical, but do we know if there was that kind of jeopardy?

--Dwight

Dwight Gruber · 06-16-2006, 06:17 AM

There have been quite few posts and emails of c/RC details, and I have mined Imperial Lugers and Weimar Lugers for c/RC marks. This has more than doubled the data, so I have edited the top post to include the current spreadsheet. The photo notation indicates that all views were not always available for examination.

Continued thanks to everyone who has participated.

--Dwight

thorin6 · 06-17-2006, 04:23 PM

Dwight,
In your spreadsheet you note that my SN has 2 marks (1917 SN 9358d), but I only saw the one on the receiver--there isn't any mark on the trigger guard.
thorin6

Dwight Gruber · 06-17-2006, 07:08 PM

William,

A transcription error, thanks very much for pointing it out (and for the info, as well). Fixed on my database, it will show up next time I update the post.

--Dwight

reich1900 · 10-29-2006, 03:33 PM

Dwight here is some more information for your servey.
1918 Erfurt ser# 6520q all matching including the magazine.
RC stamp on the barrel above the insp. mark
receiver over the hard mark
frame on the front of the trigger guard
Three stamps in all.
Bernie

the gunman · 10-29-2006, 04:36 PM

1916 Erfurt # 7646
Rear toggle RC
above inspc. RC
Replaced barrel S/42 proofed TP

Dwight Gruber · 10-30-2006, 03:35 AM

Richard,

Thanks very much for the info.

--Dwight

grapppa · 10-30-2006, 07:35 PM

Year - 1917
Serial number - 8110k
standard or LP (1914) - std

c/RC marks on:

Barrel-above inspector mark
Reciever-above hardness mark
Toggle train-breechblock
Frame-trigger guard

Dwight Gruber · 11-07-2006, 05:37 PM

I've inserted the most current data from this survey into the first post, above. Sorry that the headers are hard to read, this is right at the limit of resolution for the maximum filesize.

Thanks again to everybody who has responded.

--Dwight

micmacman · 11-19-2006, 07:31 PM

i just put a Erfurt Luger on layaway,a 1917 that has the C/RC marking on it as well

i have a couple Gew 88 Commission rifles that have the same proof,and a while back we had a discussion about it when i inquired about what its distinction was,and all that chimed in had it on a Erfurt Gew 88

is this a proof mark indicative to the Erfurt arsenal solely?

also what was determined the meaning of the mark (not 100% sure if correct) was that it signified a part that had a correctable flaw,that merely need some minor attention to bring up to standard,,,,,is this correct?

also what do you mean by "standard or LP"?

year -1917

serial#- 7661f

reciver right side above inspection proofs
forward part of trigger guard

i will examine more closely when i get it paid off and edit as needed

reich1900 · 11-19-2006, 07:42 PM

Hi Dwight, I didn't see my 1918 Erfurt ser# 6520q , that I posted earlier, on your updated list. Is it an over sight?
Bernie

06-12-2006, 02:16 PM	#1
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,893 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,288 Times in 426 Posts	Erfurt c/RC mark survey Updated 11/07/06 Most current version of the database The Ph entries are from photographs, not all pistol views were shown and so there could be marks missing from these rerports. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A very interesting and informative discussion about the WWI Revisions-Commission and c/RC markings on Erfurt Lugers () has reminded me of the brief attempt a year or so ago here on this Forum to survey the predominance of c/RC markings, by year, on Erfurt Lugers. The discussion has got my data juices flowing, so I am resurrecting the survey in hopes of doing a proper datbase. There have been an number of good responses, and I have mined the Forums for data (there are a surprising number of good reports). The database is complex enough that it is easiest to snapshot the spreadsheet and present it here (current as of 6/15): You can see the kind of data I am looking for: Year Serial number standard or LP (1914) c/RC marks on: Barrel-above inspector mark Barrel-elsewhere Reciever-above hardness mark Receiver-sear bar Receiver-elsewhere Toggle train-breechblock Toggle train-center toggle Toggle train-rear toggle Toggle train-elsewhere Frame-trigger guard Frame-left frame rail Frame-elsewhere Trigger plate-exterior Trigger plate-trigger lever Takedown lever Anywhere else not specified Since there were a number of DWM c/RC marks reported I am including them and looking for more. Thanks very much to everyone who has responded so far. If anyone else has information to add, please post the information here or email me dwightg@pacifier.com . I will continue to update the database post every so often. --Dwight

06-13-2006, 12:32 PM	#2
Augsburger User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Tejas Posts: 160 Thanks: 17 Thanked 14 Times in 5 Posts	Dwight...soryy I missed this post. Here's the info on mine... 1916 Erfurt sn 2947n (standard) c/RC right side receiver over inspection marks c/RC front top of trigger guard 1918 Erfurt sn 5830d (standard) c/RC right side receiver over inspection marks c/RC over sn on rear flat side of rear toggle piece c/RC front top of trigger guard c/RC right side of breechblock (mark is exposed when gun assembled) Looks like the 1918's were pieced together for production from whatever they could get their hands on as quickly as possible. Hope this helps.....Cheers....G __________________ Wilder Eber

06-14-2006, 09:47 AM	#4
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	P.08 1914 Erfurt sn 963 b C/RC Left side of barrel C/RC Trigger guard P.08 1917 Erfurt sn 4261g Broken Crown C/RC Rear toggle link C/RC Left side of barrel C/RC Trigger guard __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

06-15-2006, 10:29 PM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,005 Thanks: 1,087 Thanked 5,139 Times in 1,689 Posts	Dwight, 1912 #719a Standard C/RC Trigger Guard (tucked way up in the curve where the guard meets the frame in front...almost missed it) I know it sounds a little cynical, but I suspect that the C/RC marks show up with increasing frequency as the war progressed largely due to bureaucracy. The inspectors needed to justify their existence and keep their jobs. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-29-2006, 03:33 PM	#14
reich1900 User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Long Island, N.Y. Posts: 58 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	RC Dwight here is some more information for your servey. 1918 Erfurt ser# 6520q all matching including the magazine. RC stamp on the barrel above the insp. mark receiver over the hard mark frame on the front of the trigger guard Three stamps in all. Bernie

06-14-2006, 01:39 AM	#3
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,893 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,288 Times in 426 Posts	I have posted the current database in a revised first post to this discussion. My thanks to everyone who has provided data so far. --Dwight

06-14-2006, 12:22 PM	#5
thorin6 User Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: North Carolina Posts: 43 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dwight, Can you post a picture of the mark we are looking for. My 1917 Erfurt does not appear to have a c/RC (assuming that means a crown over the initials RC) on it, but I would like to know what the mark looks like. thorin6

06-14-2006, 07:59 PM	#6
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 519 Thanks: 0 Thanked 262 Times in 115 Posts	Dwight, 1911 #7686 standard of course c/RC toggle train - center toggle KFS

06-14-2006, 10:27 PM	#7
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,893 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,288 Times in 426 Posts	Ron, and Karl. Thanks very much for the info. William, Here is a shot of the c/RC mark, its the best one I have and not very good at that, but it should get the point across. --Dwight

06-15-2006, 10:05 PM	#8
thorin6 User Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: North Carolina Posts: 43 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Year 1917 SN 9358d Standard c/RC above proof marks on right front of receiver Not observed anywhere else thorin6

06-16-2006, 03:12 AM	#10
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,893 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,288 Times in 426 Posts	Karl, and Ron, Thanks much for the info. I'm not sure that that reason is cynical, but do we know if there was that kind of jeopardy? --Dwight

06-16-2006, 06:17 AM	#11
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,893 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,288 Times in 426 Posts	There have been quite few posts and emails of c/RC details, and I have mined Imperial Lugers and Weimar Lugers for c/RC marks. This has more than doubled the data, so I have edited the top post to include the current spreadsheet. The photo notation indicates that all views were not always available for examination. Continued thanks to everyone who has participated. --Dwight

06-17-2006, 04:23 PM	#12
thorin6 User Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: North Carolina Posts: 43 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dwight, In your spreadsheet you note that my SN has 2 marks (1917 SN 9358d), but I only saw the one on the receiver--there isn't any mark on the trigger guard. thorin6

06-17-2006, 07:08 PM	#13
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,893 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,288 Times in 426 Posts	William, A transcription error, thanks very much for pointing it out (and for the info, as well). Fixed on my database, it will show up next time I update the post. --Dwight

10-29-2006, 04:36 PM	#15
the gunman User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Leland NC 28451 Posts: 1,017 Thanks: 1 Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts	1916 Erfurt # 7646 Rear toggle RC above inspc. RC Replaced barrel S/42 proofed TP

10-30-2006, 03:35 AM	#16
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,893 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,288 Times in 426 Posts	Richard, Thanks very much for the info. --Dwight

10-30-2006, 07:35 PM	#17
grapppa User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hillsborough, NJ Posts: 147 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Year - 1917 Serial number - 8110k standard or LP (1914) - std c/RC marks on: Barrel-above inspector mark Reciever-above hardness mark Toggle train-breechblock Frame-trigger guard

11-07-2006, 05:37 PM	#18
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,893 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,288 Times in 426 Posts	I've inserted the most current data from this survey into the first post, above. Sorry that the headers are hard to read, this is right at the limit of resolution for the maximum filesize. Thanks again to everybody who has responded. --Dwight

11-19-2006, 07:31 PM	#19
micmacman User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: West Virginia Posts: 33 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	i just put a Erfurt Luger on layaway,a 1917 that has the C/RC marking on it as well i have a couple Gew 88 Commission rifles that have the same proof,and a while back we had a discussion about it when i inquired about what its distinction was,and all that chimed in had it on a Erfurt Gew 88 is this a proof mark indicative to the Erfurt arsenal solely? also what was determined the meaning of the mark (not 100% sure if correct) was that it signified a part that had a correctable flaw,that merely need some minor attention to bring up to standard,,,,,is this correct? also what do you mean by "standard or LP"? year -1917 serial#- 7661f reciver right side above inspection proofs forward part of trigger guard i will examine more closely when i get it paid off and edit as needed __________________ NRA,give,and give often,,,they fight the good fight for all of us

11-19-2006, 07:42 PM	#20
reich1900 User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Long Island, N.Y. Posts: 58 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Hi Dwight, I didn't see my 1918 Erfurt ser# 6520q , that I posted earlier, on your updated list. Is it an over sight? Bernie