Police weapons manual, 1928

Vlim · 02-18-2005, 01:41 PM

Hi,

Just received a 1928 German Police officer weapons training book. Published in 1928 by Verlag Eisenschmidt in Berlin.

The book gives a basic technical description of the weapons available to police unit in the later Weimar years. These include sticks, swords, bayonets, the P08, Mauser '7.65' (model 1912/1914), c96, K98, MP18, MP08(!) and the wellknown stick grenade.

The P08 section features a group of well-known very old engravings of an interesting parabellum mix. (note the old style knobs, trigger, barrel and safety lever).

In the MP18 section, there are some interesting bits about the famous trommel-magazine, including the lay-out of the carrying box and the way munitions carriers were supposed to wear the trommel magazines (3 at once).

As with other books, if anyone needs access or information for reference purposes, just let me know.

mauro · 02-18-2005, 01:51 PM

Very interesting Gerben,
Two consideration: the pistol depicted is in a very odd configuration.
The Trommelmagazine with carrying holster and the P-Kasten are really interesting.
Thank you.
Mauro

Ron Wood · 02-18-2005, 02:09 PM

What is really interesting in the Luger illustration is that all the parts are old model except the new model breechblock with a GELADEN extractor! I wonder what the illustrator was using as an example when he drew it. It is neither 03/04 Navy or 03 French. I think he did it so we would have something to wonder about.

Edward Tinker · 02-18-2005, 03:14 PM

Very interesting Vlim, anyway I could pay, bribe or induce you to scan it all in for me!

Thanks for sharing!

Ed

Vlim · 02-18-2005, 03:22 PM

Ed,

Thought you'd like it

Pity the book is written entirely in Fraktur. Makes it a decent challenge to read it

Also the tight binding makes it difficult to scan without pulling it apart.

Ron: I think the person who made these etchings just used a combination of sources to draw them up. Similar images of this 1900/04/06/08-ish thing are seen in commercial fold-out booklets. Have a reproduction of one hanging above the PC

Edward Tinker · 02-18-2005, 03:32 PM

Silly question on my part! Keep on the lookout for another

And excellent find!!

Ed

Ron Wood · 02-18-2005, 04:37 PM

Back in the dark ages when I took German in college, all the textbooks were in Fraktur. I may not know what all the words are, but the letters are no challenge!

John Sabato · 02-18-2005, 09:27 PM

I remember those dark ages Ron... all my German textbooks and literature books were printed in Fraktur... 1963 - 1967

George Anderson · 02-19-2005, 12:55 PM

The packing of the 16 round ammo boxes answers alot of questions I have had about my TM08 Kasten. Thanks.

pisto · 02-19-2005, 02:39 PM

Gerben, is that a armorers manual : "Leitfaden f. d. Ordungspolizei" ?

Vlim · 02-19-2005, 03:02 PM

Roland,

Nope. It's officially called ' Waffentechnisches unterrichtsbuch fur den polizeibeamten' by Mr. Schmidtt. It also describes some less mundane equipment parts like the bicycle

. A nice feature is a colored-in fold out page of the MG08.

Here's a scan of the book's cover:

John D. · 02-20-2005, 08:01 PM

Hi Gerban...

Outstanding find - and tremendous illustrations!!! thanks for posting these pictures!!

John D.

pisto · 02-21-2005, 06:00 AM

Inteteresting to know that the Trommelmagazin was in use so long. As far as I know this manual describes also the C96. I hope I be the proud owner of such a rare book one time!
Does the cover say anything about the old owners name ore unit?

Vlim · 02-21-2005, 02:30 PM

Roland,

Interestingly, it also mentions that the Trommelmagazin was destined for the Lange Pistole 08, although it's use and service is described in the MG18 section.

The book contains some pencil written remarks and drawings (especially for handgrenade throwing

) by the owner, a mr. August Siebert.
It has his name in ink, his last name in pencil and also his initials in pencil on page one.

The C/96 section is 10 pages long and describes, like the P08 section, the basics of the pistol, technical features, possible malfunctions and solutions.

Vlim · 02-21-2005, 02:46 PM

Vlim · 02-21-2005, 02:55 PM

Note that the illustrations of the pistol's inside are of a much better quality and of a later date than the first general description of the P08.

Also interestingly is the separate mentioning of both the P08 and the Parabellum names, whereby the latter is used to refer to the 7,65 version of the pistol.

pisto · 03-06-2005, 12:03 PM

Gerben,
could aquire recently the modern Schmitt armorers manual from 1951:
Original owner was a young Police trainee in Hechingen-Lindich (county: Baden-WÃ?Â¼rttemberg)

Instruction about:
Pistols
SIG 210
Astra 600
P38 (P1)

Machine guns:
MG 42
FN FAL G1
Beretta machine pistol

here are some pictures as a link:
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/farbtafel.jpg
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/mg_farbt.jpg
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/sig_schnitt.jpg
http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/mg_seite.jpg

Vlim · 03-07-2005, 12:58 PM

Roland,

Hey, that's very nice. Interesting to see that they clinged to the old style for such a long time.

I wonder if they're still in business?

LU1900 · 03-08-2005, 10:56 AM

I don't know if my subscription have interest, I just bought this item on eBay last month it's describe on the "Bender" page 38

I just joint the scan I do

And the verso same document

I see some similitude and hope could help
Best regards Pat

Vlim · 03-08-2005, 01:32 PM

Hi,

Nice. The same author, publisher and the same dies used for the illustrations. Certainly, herr Schmitt was a busy guy who also managed to get through the war unscathed.

02-18-2005, 01:41 PM	#1
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Police weapons manual, 1928 Hi, Just received a 1928 German Police officer weapons training book. Published in 1928 by Verlag Eisenschmidt in Berlin. The book gives a basic technical description of the weapons available to police unit in the later Weimar years. These include sticks, swords, bayonets, the P08, Mauser '7.65' (model 1912/1914), c96, K98, MP18, MP08(!) and the wellknown stick grenade. The P08 section features a group of well-known very old engravings of an interesting parabellum mix. (note the old style knobs, trigger, barrel and safety lever). In the MP18 section, there are some interesting bits about the famous trommel-magazine, including the lay-out of the carrying box and the way munitions carriers were supposed to wear the trommel magazines (3 at once). As with other books, if anyone needs access or information for reference purposes, just let me know.

02-18-2005, 01:51 PM	#2
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 350 Times in 129 Posts	Very interesting Gerben, Two consideration: the pistol depicted is in a very odd configuration. The Trommelmagazine with carrying holster and the P-Kasten are really interesting. Thank you. Mauro __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

02-18-2005, 02:09 PM	#3
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,035 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,242 Times in 1,719 Posts	What is really interesting in the Luger illustration is that all the parts are old model except the new model breechblock with a GELADEN extractor! I wonder what the illustrator was using as an example when he drew it. It is neither 03/04 Navy or 03 French. I think he did it so we would have something to wonder about. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-18-2005, 03:14 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,962 Thanks: 2,062 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	Very interesting Vlim, anyway I could pay, bribe or induce you to scan it all in for me! Thanks for sharing! Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-18-2005, 04:37 PM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,035 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,242 Times in 1,719 Posts	Back in the dark ages when I took German in college, all the textbooks were in Fraktur. I may not know what all the words are, but the letters are no challenge! __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-18-2005, 03:22 PM	#5
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Ed, Thought you'd like it Pity the book is written entirely in Fraktur. Makes it a decent challenge to read it Also the tight binding makes it difficult to scan without pulling it apart. Ron: I think the person who made these etchings just used a combination of sources to draw them up. Similar images of this 1900/04/06/08-ish thing are seen in commercial fold-out booklets. Have a reproduction of one hanging above the PC

02-18-2005, 03:32 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,962 Thanks: 2,062 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	Silly question on my part! Keep on the lookout for another And excellent find!! Ed

02-18-2005, 09:27 PM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	I remember those dark ages Ron... all my German textbooks and literature books were printed in Fraktur... 1963 - 1967 __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

02-19-2005, 12:55 PM	#9
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	The packing of the 16 round ammo boxes answers alot of questions I have had about my TM08 Kasten. Thanks.

02-19-2005, 02:39 PM	#10
pisto User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 228 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Gerben, is that a armorers manual : "Leitfaden f. d. Ordungspolizei" ?

02-19-2005, 03:02 PM	#11
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Roland, Nope. It's officially called ' Waffentechnisches unterrichtsbuch fur den polizeibeamten' by Mr. Schmidtt. It also describes some less mundane equipment parts like the bicycle . A nice feature is a colored-in fold out page of the MG08. Here's a scan of the book's cover:

02-20-2005, 08:01 PM	#12
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Hi Gerban... Outstanding find - and tremendous illustrations!!! thanks for posting these pictures!! John D.

02-21-2005, 06:00 AM	#13
pisto User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 228 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Inteteresting to know that the Trommelmagazin was in use so long. As far as I know this manual describes also the C96. I hope I be the proud owner of such a rare book one time! Does the cover say anything about the old owners name ore unit?

02-21-2005, 02:30 PM	#14
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Roland, Interestingly, it also mentions that the Trommelmagazin was destined for the Lange Pistole 08, although it's use and service is described in the MG18 section. The book contains some pencil written remarks and drawings (especially for handgrenade throwing ) by the owner, a mr. August Siebert. It has his name in ink, his last name in pencil and also his initials in pencil on page one. The C/96 section is 10 pages long and describes, like the P08 section, the basics of the pistol, technical features, possible malfunctions and solutions.

02-21-2005, 02:46 PM	#15
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Some detail drawings of the P08 section

02-21-2005, 02:55 PM	#16
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Note that the illustrations of the pistol's inside are of a much better quality and of a later date than the first general description of the P08. Also interestingly is the separate mentioning of both the P08 and the Parabellum names, whereby the latter is used to refer to the 7,65 version of the pistol.

03-06-2005, 12:03 PM	#17
pisto User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 228 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here is the Schmitt edition of 1951 Gerben, could aquire recently the modern Schmitt armorers manual from 1951: Original owner was a young Police trainee in Hechingen-Lindich (county: Baden-WÃ?Â¼rttemberg) Instruction about: Pistols SIG 210 Astra 600 P38 (P1) Machine guns: MG 42 FN FAL G1 Beretta machine pistol here are some pictures as a link: http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/farbtafel.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/mg_farbt.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/sig_schnitt.jpg http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/mg_seite.jpg Attached Images

03-07-2005, 12:58 PM	#18
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Roland, Hey, that's very nice. Interesting to see that they clinged to the old style for such a long time. I wonder if they're still in business?

03-08-2005, 10:56 AM	#19
LU1900 User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: FRANCE Posts: 911 Thanks: 46 Thanked 471 Times in 198 Posts	I don't know if my subscription have interest, I just bought this item on eBay last month it's describe on the "Bender" page 38 I just joint the scan I do And the verso same document I see some similitude and hope could help Best regards Pat

03-08-2005, 01:32 PM	#20
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,990 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, Nice. The same author, publisher and the same dies used for the illustrations. Certainly, herr Schmitt was a busy guy who also managed to get through the war unscathed.