More Black Widow Questions (long)

I also have a 1941 mfg. byf marked P.08 with black grips. It was my first Luger purchase and I bought it last year from a reputable local dealer after reading all I could on Lugers (Kenyon, Whittington, Still, etc). But after reading some previous posts, I'm worried that I may not have gotten what I paid for...


My gun is in 95% or better condition (with very light holster wear to muzzle and edges) and all matching. Serial # is 606, I believe it is "s" block (it looks like a lowercase cursive "s" to me). The gun has all the appropriate proofs (mostly Eagle 655) in all the right places. The black bakelite grips show light wear and fit the gun perfectly, but are not marked in any way. The gun came with a very nice "cey" marked light brown holster, Eagle 655 marked tool, cleaning rod, and even an original leather lanyard for the pistol. It came with two mags. One had an aluminum bottom and is marked with an Eagle 655 proof on the bottom, but no serial number. The other mag is a black-bottomed fxo mag without serial number.


I bought this gun as an original, matching collector's piece. Based on what I'd read about black grips and unnumbered/replacement mags I thought it was kosher, but after reading the related threads below about "Black Widows", and specifically the comments of Frank and Bill M, I'm worried that I made a costly mistake.


Y'all have a wonderful site here--I've learned a lot! Thanks in advance for any help you can give me and I apologize for the long post.


Jay

[bill m]

Hi Jay,

As far as all the data that I've seen or collected, I do think that up until the T block, and most likely, the U block, all the byf's originally had wood grips. The black plastic could very well be on ealier guns as replacements. You can talk to 10 different collectors and get 10 different opinions on this. Some say that the black plastic grips are correct on the 41/42 code guns, and you do see a lot of these with the black plastic grips, but I feel from serial numbers that they were not originally issued until the U block, or possibly the T block of the byf 41's. I think they were not even issued until June of 1941, but will have to look that up.


The blank bottom magazines with your gun are replacements in this case. Your gun, in the S block, originally had two matching serial numbered fxo magazines. This was the case into the U block, and then you could have either black plastic or blank fxo aluminium.


Your gun sounds like a very nice gun to me. Two proper replacement magazines and possibly replacement grips. These black plastic grips were added to lots of guns to make a "black widow", as some think the value is more on them. Hope this helps some, and this is just my opinion, so take it for what you think it is worth.

[Frank]

I can only tell you the I agree completely with the comments made by bill m. You have a nice Luger, but unfortunately someone has "MADE" a Black Widow out of something that is NOT a Black Widow !! With some help you can bring it back to something close to original, but alas it will be only close.

Thanks very much for your feedback, Bill.


With (possibly) replacement grips and mags, I suppose that it's a stretch to call this "original and matching". BUT, since there doesn't seem to be much collector consensus on these Black Widows, and the grips and mags could quite possibly be period replacements, I'm wondering how you'd classify the gun, and what that means for its value?


On a related note, I've had two collectors tell me that my holster was particularly valuable, especially with the original lanyard. Any truth to that?


Thanks again!


Jay

[Thor]

Jay, that lanyard is questionable, see General Information about Lanyards. Bill M can answer the holster question, he is an expert (usually......just kidding) on Mauser Miltary models and holsters, ESPECIALLY police Lugers>


Welcome and hope to see you on the forum regularly! We have a great bunch of people that have a wealth of information between them. They dont always agree but all are respectfully (usually.....just kidding) of each other even when disagreements occur. This forum and the participants are definetly a CUT ABOVE all the the other forums that bash, flame and call names to each other. Really a quality site and IMO THE PREMIER Luger site on the web. We even have our own LUGER FORUM PATCH, a real beauty! Kudos to Dok (our ESTEEMED WM and maker of those EXCELLENT Presentation CASES) for a quality site that continues to grow under DOKS tutelage (spell checker hep me) grows and gets better every week. Thor

Jay, I also generally agree with BillM and others opinions on the Black grips/un-numbered mags relating to the u serial block and beyond. You should however keep in mind that new items and parts (ie black grips, black mag bottoms) were almost always introduced somewhat gradually into the production line. This is certainly true on most items that can be dated to certain production times for the German military. After a change in style or material (ie laminated stocks for k98k) was tested and accepted, then orders were placed and quanities started trickling in to the assembly lines. These were incorporated into the assembly..and so on. My point is, while noticeable quanities of black grips may not have been delivered to start being used until the u block, this does not mean that small quanities ( say a few hundred) were not being used up here and there several months earlier. As implied above this is certainly the case on the laminated k98k stocks and many other weapon changes.

I agree that the un-numbered alum. bottom mag probably would have still be numbered in the s block. The used of the black bottom mag could be same as the grips.

Jay. I don't think any of us can truly say at this stage of the game what is right and what is wrong on you Luger. An armed conflict was going on and the weapons were being used for one thing at that time protection and killing. The only guns that we might truly say are the way they were made is if the were still in the factory and never issued or to talk to the people that made them. Yes parts were added or replaced and possibly by the original owner to who the weapon was issued, maybe he liked Black Grips better we don't know. Did he lose or have malfuctioning original numbered Mags maybe. Than again that may be the way he was

issued them. People who study history or write books are making their best educated opinion on what was right or wrong. However, we are finding lots of new items coming out of the woodwork and I don't think they are all faked or wrong. If you know who you purchased the Luger from great, if he has put something together just to make more money don't buy from him again and request your money back if you have douths. Aboveall don't try to pass off what you have if you determine it is wrong. The point is that I don't believe that anyone can say with absolute certinty that what you have was not issued as such from German Quartermasters and I don't think the point of the Forum is to cast douth on someones purchases it just takes all the fun out of collecting. There definitely is a wealth of knowledge here for people to educate and inform, helping someone expand their collection and educating them is one of the great things about this group, but if we are causing people anguish about there purchases something is wrong. I turn 68 Sunday, I have enjoyed my hobby for 50 plus years and am sorry to see it degenerate into a profit making operation that some are making it. It appears that we are reaching a point where we will no longer be able to trust individuals and may be sowing a distrust of individual transactions and prior purchases.

[bill m]

Hi Tracy,

I understand your comments, but I do not know how to answer the question without telling the truth, and just telling it like I believe it is. You can make all kinds of statements that no one know how it came from the factory, and that is true, but by recording guns and serial number lists and large data collections, we have a very good idea of how they were, and when a transition took place, and what is correct and what isn't. In this case, there is no doubt that the magazines that were issued with this gun were fxo magazines with an alumium base, serial numbered to the gun. Also, from serial numbers and data of byf Lugers, it is also highly unlikely that this gun was issued with plastic grips. They could very well be replacements in the field, possibly broken or ect., but we do not know this. The last thing I would want would be to dis-courage someone from collecting, but when someone asks a question that I feel I can answer honestly and truthfully, I can not help it if it is not the answer they were looking for. We all have to have guide-lines to go by. This tells us what is correct and what isn't. You can make assumptions and have "what if's" all the time to make something seem correct, but without these guide-lines none of us would have any idea what was correct and what isn't.

[G.T.]

Hi Bill, I would venture to say that you are probably right, in the majority of cases, on the tracking of P.08's by serial range. I think this method is the only means now available, because most first hand knowledge has long since passed on.....continuous serial no. tracking does give one an excellent overview as to what is correct for a variation and what is not! There is one fly in the ointment.....actually two, The first, is that there is no way to prove that any manufactured item is assembled in the sequence that is used as a tracking device.......the second is, incomplete tracking data compiled by collectors.....there are many gaps and inconsistancies in these data banks, but, they are improved as time passes along ....there is actually a third fly....and that is as Tracy pointed out.... the parts bin theory, many times in manufacturing, as new parts come on line, they are simply thrown in on top of older new parts! Especially in the area of non critical parts where retrofit is not an important part of the agenda......these parts can then be covered by other parts and so on, and so on.......there is no way to know when they were introduced or when they were used...I for one, would not pass on any war trophy byf with black plastic grips and mag, if the condition was excellent, regardless of the serial range....till....later....G.T.

[Thor]

I found an extremely nice Black Widow but it is a out sequence (not a recognized out of sequence variation either) and appears to be put together from some parts bin, but the assembly and work is stunning! I will probably buy this gun regardless if it was put together in Germany, California, or Florida or anywhere else. It is not a collectable to me because it needs to fill a particular variation. I just fell in love with it and probably will have to buy it to "scratch an itch" I know it is not proper, just purty! I go into this one with my eyes wide open. Thor

[bill m]

Hi GT,

I agree with your comments and your theory could very well be correct as to the sequence of thing, but we still have to have guide lines. When you start making assumptions that this is possible, and that is possible, you leave yourself wide open to accept just about anything. For instance, the magazines on the 1936 S/42 switched from nickle to blue in the N block. Would you accept blue magazines earlier that this? You could make the assumption that it is possible to have blue magazines in the L block, but would they be correct? How about nickle magazines in the O block? You have to use this serial number data as the guide to what is correct and what isn't. The transition from nickle to blue took place in the N block, so any blue magazines before this would be very suspect. A transition period took place and in the O block you could still have nickle magazines. See what I'm getting at here? There are guidelines that are not set in stone, but are fairly close, that guide us as to what is right and what is incorrect. In the case of the S block byf, the magazines were serial numbered to the gun and were fxo's. We know this because of the serial number data before and after the S block. The same with the grips. On large data sheets, the black plastic grips did not start showing up with any consistancy until the U block, with a very few in the T block. There is one now and then before this, but with no consistancy, so what does this tell us........that they are probably a field replacement or have been changed later. Any nice byf is great and should not be passed on, but if you want to be correct on the configurations and magazines and proofs, you have to know your field and use these guidelines. The only reason for an assumption is in the transition periods.

[G.T.]

Hi Bill! I think we are on the same page as far as serial tracking goes, and I agree many, if not most of the unique features of a certain variation can definitly be determined in this way....but one must have a little of the gambler's spirit, because there are so many large gaps in the tracking records of many of the number crunchers! I have purchased several pistols that didn't look right to a lot of collectors, only to find out many years later that they were unusual variations or sub variations....some of the characteristics were at that time unknown and unpublished! In my experience, it has been more with P.38's, but I believe all mass produced pistols will have there own little blocks of transitions and introductions...that go against the established guidelines.....In closing though, I would agree, you have to have guidelines and serial tracking is the best we can do, I'm just not convinced that they are as inflexible as you feel they are.


Bill, I do respect your opinion and I have enjoyed and learned from this thread! till....later...G.T.

Thanks to all for your input.


Although I can always hope that these changes were period replacements, or subscribe to the "first in, last out" parts bin theory, I suppose I'm still a bit frustrated that my pistol many very well not be original.


I suppose lots of folks make a poor decision in this line of collecting at one point or another...maybe I was overdue, and I've learned a lesson.


Thanks again for your help and a great site!


Jay