P-08 commercial ques

Howdy,


I found my way here via Ralph Shattuck's website. My grandfather brought back a Luger and a Walther PPK with him when he returned from Europe in WW2. All I have been able to find out about the Luger is that it is a 1908 commercial model and was probably mfg about 1910. At gunshows, I have had several guys look at it, including a guy from New Braunfels who I believe used to be big into Lugers, him I trust fairly well. The conscensus from these guys is that the model is correct and date of mfg is correct (or at least very close), and that it is in 85% original condition. The takedown lever is off by 5 digits otherwise it as all matching.


I also have a brown leather holster (original German commercial), two wooden bottom mags and an aluminum bottom mag that belong to the pistol. ( I don't know how to identify if the mags are orig to the pistol or a WW2 issue, I know the aluminum one has waffenampt)


I am not trying to sell it, but I would like to get a good handle on it's value and the value of the accompanying accessories. I understand that this is probably a fairly common pistol even though it has great value to our family history.


I have been told that it is worth anywhere from $150.00 to $500.00 if I was lucky enough to find somone to take it off my hands. Oh, yeah and throw in that nasty old holster and funky looking mags! Hmmm, go figure, forgive me my skepticism.


That is why I turned to you guys, I want to get opinions from the folks who know and love these pistols.

Please pardon the length of my post.


Thank You,


Wilhelm


please direct replies to wyakey@cnzinc.com

[John Sabato]

The fact that the takedown lever is not matching means that the pistol is not matching to collectors. The fact that your grandfather brought it back that way holds little value to them as the pistol is not as it left the factory. That fact not withstanding, the pistol as a shooter is worth at least $450 and up if you have described it accurately. What you need to do to get closer to a fair market value is to look to the left of your screen at the black frame and take the link to the techical information and download the identification sheets there. Record all the identifying marks and then brief us on what you put on the ID sheets. The holster is worth a couple of bucks or a couple of hundred depending on condition. The wooden bottom mags MAY be original to the pistol, but you can only be sure if there is a number stamped on the wooden bottom that matches the gun's serial number. The aluminum bottom mag is more than likely a spare picked up by your Grandad.


Is there a little takedown tool in the small pouch under the flap of the holster? That too may or may not be original equipment as these things tend to get lost and replaced in combat.


If you have a scanner, you can place the Luger directly on the glass in various positions and make a very respectable near photo quality images that can be posted here for us to examine.


Other things affecting the value are the presence of pitting in any quantity, and the condition of the grips.


If you have any more questions, drop back anytime. Somebody is always listening!


Take a moment and take the link at the top of the discussion page to "Edit Your Profile" and create yourself a profile here. That locks the use of your screen name so no one else can post as you. This is a great site, and the info you get here will help you understand and enjoy what you have been so fortunate to inherit.


regards,


John

Willy, Your M1908 Commerical was originally issued with 2 unnumbered wood bottom mags in cadnium (turns yellow as it oxidizes) plated tubes. I have several commerically numbered (numbered on the lower edge, which is correct for this model) locking bolts,so if you wish to tell me the last 2 digits of your serial number, perhaps we can match it up. Since many of these commerical did surivive in 98% condition, there's not a large market for one in less than 95% condition, but if it were matching, with exc bore and checkered wood grips and 2 orig unnumbered wood bottom mags, I'd estimate its retail value around $600. If parts not pitted, I'd offer $450 for it, with the extra mags, just for parts.

[Johnny Peppers]

Apparently your Luger is a Model 1908 Commercial from what you have been told, and as such the original magazines would not have the serial number on them. The 08 Commercial has never attained the popularity with collectors that the 1900 and 1906 have. Really nice pistols can be bought for bargain prices when compared to the two earlier variations. Commercial holsters are fairly rare, but as with anything else, condition is everything. If your pistol was all matching it would be in the $750 range, and probably loses close to 20% of it's value due to the mis-matched part. The spare wood bottom magazine, if commercial, is worth another $100/125 if nice, and the aluminum base somewhere in the $80 range. Priceing something you have never seen is very subjective and the prices I have given are just a guide.

[Kyrie]

Hi Wilhelm,


In all fairness I should mention the â??matching upâ?� Tom is suggesting is viewed by many collectors (including myself) as fraudulent, as it produces a Luger that only appears to match.


Best regards,


Kyrie

[Johnny Peppers]

Wilhelm,

I sense no intent on your part to commit deceit or fraud by changing the takedown lever (locking bar) on your Luger as you explained that you had no intention of selling it as it was a family heirloom. If you would be more satisfied with your Luger with the takedown lever matching, by all means do it.

[bill m]

Hi Kyrie,

Appearance is very important in all collecting grade items. You would not put a 75 Corvette hood on a 67 model, if you wanted the correct appearance. I think you've gone way overboard on this "fraudulent" stuff. Fraud is when you purposely try to decieve someone. You are correct when you say that when you put the correct matching part on a Luger, you have not made it all original again, as technically that is impossible, but when this is done, you have restored it to a condition as it was originally produced. There is nothing wrong with this in my opinion, to replace the part that someone else has already replaced at some time. When you get a gun with a mismatched part, that gun is not as originally produced, so why do you want to keep it as such, when you have no idea when, where, or by whom messed with it? There is no way that you or I or anyone else can tell which parts have been replaced if they are fitted properly. The gun you buy that is suppose to be all original may have been messed with 25 years ago, but you would never know that. Most parts that have been replaced were done so because they either broke or did not work properly when parts and numbers did not mean anything, but proper working order did. To replace a part to make the gun all proper, and matching does not seem "fraudulent" to me, but more like an act of kindness! I can not stand fraud or counterfiets, and think the people that do this are the lowest SOB's around, but changing a wrong part is not the same, in my opinion. You take care, as it is good to have different opinions. That's what makes the world go round.

[Kyrie]

Hi Bill,


I have to respectfully disagree :-(


Collectors (as you know!) have their own language. â??Matchingâ?� is verbal shorthand for â??all originalâ?� and is a term used in the valuation of a Luger. Swapping parts to make a Luger appear to be original when it is not is, in my opinion, a dishonest act as it makes the pistol appear to be something that it is not. We both know that at some point in time such pistols will be offered to new collectors as matching, and said new collector will be cheated. Thatâ??s not a good thing for the new collector, or for collectors generally.


Just my $0.02 on the subject.


Best regards,


Kyrie

[Johnny Peppers]

As the subject of whether putting another part on a Luger creates a fake and the person doing it is guilty of doing something fraudulent comes up on a regular basis, maybe this should be included in the information section of the forum. It is just plain bad manners to accuse someone of doing something fraudulent when they ask what they consider to be an innocent question about finding a matching part for one that is mismatched. Just my opinion, but I believe the forum can do without such accusations when it is readily apparent that there is no intent to deceive.

[Thor]

Johnny and Kyrie: I must admit I see both sides of this. While I think the intial intent is innocent enough and the owner might just want to make his Luger look more proper (which I at face value) have to problem with since in his heart he is really not out to "stick" someone! On the other hand when the owner is long gone and the gun is passed down another generation or two, the original part replacement act MIGHT be forgotten , innocently, and then whoever is lucky enough to receive the gun as an inheritance TRUELY believes it is all matching AND original. So a fraud POTENTIally could be in the making. The question arises, how far do we carry this "protection" from fraud? Kyrie believes, if you permit me, in the "no tolerence" aspect of thou shalt not change to make it look better. Johnny feels differently, I think there is room for both opinions, not just "I am right" or "NO....I am right". I think you are both right in your own opinion! My personal problem comes when someone directly does this with the INTENT to defraud. After all, aren't most of our laws geared to intent. Let's continue to disagree if necessary, but lets dont travel the road of too much passion spoiled the issue for both sides. Our two parties of government differs every day but they continue to come back and talk about it day in and day out. Let's hope all involved in this string come back and continue. I respect all opinions as long as they are not overly combative! That is where I for one loose interest because, really, is it worth this approach, it really never works, it just escalates. Nobody wins when that happens, IMO Thor

[bill m]

Hi Ted,

On this issue of a Luger being a fraud, could you please tell me what is an all original matching Luger? What ever your answer is, how can you be sure that is the way it was originally? When you buy a gun from Ralph, or me, and it is all matching, how are you sure that it was always in that condition? Perhaps I changed the firing pin or the holdopen, but you would never know this. Does this make the gun less collectable, if you do not know this? When you re-sell this gun, are you passing on a fraud? I think this is a total mis-use of the fraud concept. If the gun is not matching, someone has replaced a part with a mis-matched part. Why do you want a 99% gun to have a mis-matched holdopen, when you can return it to the proper conditon that it was originally produced? That is not fraud, but correcting someone else's mistake. We all have a lot of Lugers in our collections, and according to how I understand Kyrie's opinion, unless you actually picked it up at the factory, then you shouldn't represent it as all matching or original. Someone has owned all these Lugers, so the history on all of them is in doubt, as all could have been messed with sometime in there life. Sorry guys, but in my opinion there is nothing wrong with correcting someone else's mistake, and you will never know it, and you probably have numerous guns in your collection that have been corrected, but you do not know it and can never tell it.

[Johnny Peppers]

Ted,

There will always be differences of opinion as to what is acceptable and what is not acceptable to do to a Luger. I think that everyone would agree that if a Luger is changed to appear as a rarer or more desirable variation, this is committing fraud. My last post only covered what I consider to be a shabby way to treat newcomers to the forum by lumping them in with the con artists who do change Lugers for profit and gain. Wilhelm only wants his family heirloom to match, and to accuse him of doing something fraudulent is out of line unless we are Kreskin and capable of reading his mind. We are still presumed to be innocent until proven guilty.

I have absolutely no doubt that you refinish Lugers just to satisfy the desires of someone who wants to improve their Luger's appearance, but there are many out there that reblue Lugers to increase their saleability and value by representing them as original. As I know that you are not refinishing the Lugers with any intent to deceive, I will also defend you to the end.

[Thor]

Johnny, I completely agree with everything you said in the last post! There sure are a lot of profiters out there! IIf I were in this for pure profit I would charge as high as possible and probably go to a DEALER only, or do them just for myself and sell them as "very rare", but that is not my intent at all. You see if for what I intend. I dont want to get into a dealer only deal! I do them for individuals and that where I get the most satisfaction! As Wombat says, I like to give the guys (and girls possibly in the future) that thrill when the UPS truck comes! Thor

Oh Boy,


I know I've seen this thread before! I am more into the M1 Garands (Warum? Ich kenne nicht!) and I have a couple good ones, but you ought to see some of those guys go at it, when 'discussing' a 'restoration'.


Seriously, I don't plan to "restore" it and I personally don't care to. If I want a gun that is "original" I'll get one that is documented as such or whatever, otherwise, I like to think that there is an intrinsic value in the mismatches due to the fact that it has more to offer the imagination. This item was used, Where? When? How? By whom? I have an M1D from DCM that is in such 'new' condition, it must have been on display at some base or guard unit, and never seen any action. I have a 30-40 Krag that a soldier bought when he mustered out and eventually sporterized. It is kind of exciting to think that he carried this rifle in battle and then it continued to serve him in peactime for 60 more years.


A friend of mine has an old, rusted-solid Colt SAA from the "Wild West" days. The hammer is at half ****, the loading gate is open, and there are two or three rounds loaded. He bought it from a guy who picked it up near the Sabine River. It is one of his favorite pieces because it really gets his imagination going. Why did the owner drop it at that point? Indians, Banditos, a posse?


I guess my point is that whether it is pristine and all-matching, a mismatched sporter, or a couple pounds of rust each has its niche in history and value in one way or another.


Anyway, sorry to stray so far from the topic (Lugers). I do want to thank the group for the numerous and helpful replies.


Respectfully,


Wilhem