Unusual malfunction .30 Luger case

4 Scale · 06-29-2017, 07:51 PM

Earlier this week at the range, I was testing a recently acquired 1906 Model Parabellum "shooter", .30 Luger caliber. All went well for perhaps 20 rounds of Prvi Partizan ammo. I then tried Fiocchi (one round in the magazine). Three rounds fired OK but would not push the toggle back far enough to hold open. I then switched back to the Prvi but the pistol would not chamber the round. Upon inspection I discovered the last .30 Luger Fiocchi round had irregularly sheared off and not extracted. A good push with a cleaning rod and patch from the muzzle end, and it came out.

The photo shows the sheared round and a healthy Fiocchi round from the same box for comparison.

The pistol and extractor appear fine. The teaching of the experiment is that the pistol prefers Prvi ammo, but I'm wondering what could cause such a malfunction?

sheepherder · 06-29-2017, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4 Scale

...I'm wondering what could cause such a malfunction?

Me too. What does the sheared-off portion of the cartridge case look like??? What about the butt-end of that case??? Take pics of both, looking down at the edges of the case...

4 Scale · 06-29-2017, 08:38 PM

I looked everywhere for the butt portion but couldn't find it.

I'll try photos tomorrow of the sheared edge. It is a taper, not ragged.

Thor · 06-29-2017, 09:16 PM

Your case looks like a HP rifle casing that has been fired and resized too many times. Of course neither of those fit your situation. Incipient head space separation is I think what they call the rifle failure. I have never seen this in a pistol before. Thanks for the picture. I wonder if the chamber has been checked to see if it is in spec. Go/no go gauges check.

DonVoigt · 06-29-2017, 11:42 PM

I would say it was simply a defective case.
Defect in the drawing of the case that escaped any inspection; I would expect it happens every "x" thousands of cases that are made.

Nothing to do with the luger or the shooter; just bad luck!

rhuff · 06-30-2017, 02:13 PM

My WAG would be a case failure due to a manufacturing flaw. This is the first example of a 30 Luger case "separating" that I have seen. Thanx for showing it.

Wilhelm · 02-07-2018, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

I would say it was simply a defective case.
Defect in the drawing of the case that escaped any inspection; I would expect it happens every "x" thousands of cases that are made.

Nothing to do with the luger or the shooter; just bad luck!

100% agree. No need to overthink it.

4 Scale · 06-30-2017, 02:41 PM

Thanks to all for the comments. The case exhibits somewhat uniform thinning, with wall thickness visibly decreasing just forward of the separation line. I agree that it seems like a manufacturing defect in the case.

DonVoigt · 02-01-2018, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4 Scale

Thanks to all for the comments. The case exhibits somewhat uniform thinning, with wall thickness visibly decreasing just forward of the separation line. I agree that it seems like a manufacturing defect in the case.

Un-fortunately, you got the second one after "x-thousand" cases.

Eugen · 02-01-2018, 09:11 AM

Albeit rare, manufacturing defects happen. This week a local friend found a round with a reversed primer.

ttarp · 02-01-2018, 12:09 AM

Sorry to revive an older thread, but this happened to me just today with the same Fiocchi ammo. Nothing looked or sounded different firing, but the toggle locked back despite having 7 rounds left, and the back end of the casing which sheared off was still hooked on the extractor. I managed to move the front portion of the casing a few millimeters using patches, but haven't had any luck getting it all the way out.

4 Scale · 02-01-2018, 01:40 AM

I have a jag with o-rings that fits very tightly to the bore; I was able to push the case out by placing a patch on this and pushing it through from the muzzle end.

mrerick · 02-01-2018, 10:35 AM

The case separation is happening just above the thicker web near the base of the cartridge. It's an adjustment problem with the die used to draw the cartridge case from a bronze pellet. Over-drawing the cartridge at this point creates a very thin area that can't tolerate the stretching caused by firing.

Your gun's chamber may also be worn too large, making the stretching more extreme. There are techniques for casting the chamber and measuring it for specification.

Base separation is always difficult to clean up after. At least the gun won't generally go back into battery after the failure.

On your first picture of the failing recovered case front, you can also see how far off the position of the cartridge shoulder is. If I remember correctly, this case headspaces on the shoulder of the cartridge. Obviously there is something very wrong here from the shape of the fired cartridge. It's almost as if the gun was out of battery and in the process of extracting while the powder was still burning and expanding, forcing part of the shoulder against the rear chamber wall. This could be caused by defective or contaminated powder burning erratically.

ttarp · 02-01-2018, 01:17 PM

After trying a few different size patches, I finally got the rest of the casing out.

So the general consensus is to chalk it up to bad luck/manufacturing defect and carry on? This unnerved me a bit, the few magazines I've tried of PPU functioned fine, I may just stick with it from now on.

DonVoigt · 02-01-2018, 01:42 PM

Wire brush the chamber well, and move on.
Lightning seems to strike on the .30 Fiocchi, causing the case separations.

mrerick · 02-02-2018, 07:34 PM

That case expansion is abnormal. Double check that it's in .30 Luger caliber (see the FAQ for photos) and measure the chamber to see if it's in specification.

I've never seen that much case expansion in any handgun using the proper ammunition.

The SAAMI cartridge specifications are here:

http://saami.org/specifications_and_...MI_CFPandR.pdf

(Yes i know SAAMI wasn't around when Lugers were developed, but their specs are useful).

See pages 36 and 43 for dimensional drawings. The .30 Luger cartridge case has a considerable taper. it almost looks like your chamber was reamed out larger than the base. It almost looks like it's been loaded and fired from a 9mm chamber.

Freischütz · 02-05-2018, 03:27 PM

Interesting position of the shoulder on the fired round.

mrerick · 02-06-2018, 10:27 AM

That's what makes me think that the .30 Luger round is being fired from a 9mm Chamber.

The .30 Luger chamber is tapered like the cartridge. The fired case shows squared off expansion in front, which is what you'd see in a 9mm chamber.

DonVoigt · 02-06-2018, 02:05 PM

Surely he has fired other rounds!
What do they look like?

ttarp · 02-06-2018, 02:45 PM

Sorry, been tied up with work. Definitely a .30 Luger, a 9mm won't even come close to chambering. I see the neck is abnormally long on the bad round.

left to right, live PPU, empty PPU, empty Fiocchi, Fiocchi lightning strike.

06-29-2017, 07:51 PM	#1
4 Scale User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 544 Thanks: 194 Thanked 489 Times in 251 Posts	Unusual malfunction .30 Luger case Earlier this week at the range, I was testing a recently acquired 1906 Model Parabellum "shooter", .30 Luger caliber. All went well for perhaps 20 rounds of Prvi Partizan ammo. I then tried Fiocchi (one round in the magazine). Three rounds fired OK but would not push the toggle back far enough to hold open. I then switched back to the Prvi but the pistol would not chamber the round. Upon inspection I discovered the last .30 Luger Fiocchi round had irregularly sheared off and not extracted. A good push with a cleaning rod and patch from the muzzle end, and it came out. The photo shows the sheared round and a healthy Fiocchi round from the same box for comparison. The pistol and extractor appear fine. The teaching of the experiment is that the pistol prefers Prvi ammo, but I'm wondering what could cause such a malfunction? Attached Thumbnails Last edited by 4 Scale; 06-30-2017 at 02:30 PM. Reason: clarify caliber

06-29-2017, 09:16 PM	#4
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Your case looks like a HP rifle casing that has been fired and resized too many times. Of course neither of those fit your situation. Incipient head space separation is I think what they call the rifle failure. I have never seen this in a pistol before. Thanks for the picture. I wonder if the chamber has been checked to see if it is in spec. Go/no go gauges check. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

06-29-2017, 11:42 PM	#5
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	I would say it was simply a defective case. Defect in the drawing of the case that escaped any inspection; I would expect it happens every "x" thousands of cases that are made. Nothing to do with the luger or the shooter; just bad luck! __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

06-30-2017, 02:41 PM	#8
4 Scale User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 544 Thanks: 194 Thanked 489 Times in 251 Posts	Thanks to all for the comments. The case exhibits somewhat uniform thinning, with wall thickness visibly decreasing just forward of the separation line. I agree that it seems like a manufacturing defect in the case. Attached Thumbnails

02-01-2018, 09:11 AM	#10
Eugen User Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Newburgh,IN Posts: 790 Thanks: 394 Thanked 631 Times in 334 Posts	Albeit rare, manufacturing defects happen. This week a local friend found a round with a reversed primer. Attached Thumbnails __________________ “God created war so that Americans would learn geography.” ― Mark Twain

06-29-2017, 08:38 PM	#3
4 Scale User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 544 Thanks: 194 Thanked 489 Times in 251 Posts	I looked everywhere for the butt portion but couldn't find it. I'll try photos tomorrow of the sheared edge. It is a taper, not ragged.

06-30-2017, 02:13 PM	#6
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,291 Thanks: 2,709 Thanked 972 Times in 717 Posts	My WAG would be a case failure due to a manufacturing flaw. This is the first example of a 30 Luger case "separating" that I have seen. Thanx for showing it.

02-01-2018, 12:09 AM	#11
ttarp User Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: S.E. Texas Posts: 24 Thanks: 11 Thanked 15 Times in 10 Posts	Sorry to revive an older thread, but this happened to me just today with the same Fiocchi ammo. Nothing looked or sounded different firing, but the toggle locked back despite having 7 rounds left, and the back end of the casing which sheared off was still hooked on the extractor. I managed to move the front portion of the casing a few millimeters using patches, but haven't had any luck getting it all the way out.

02-01-2018, 01:40 AM	#12
4 Scale User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 544 Thanks: 194 Thanked 489 Times in 251 Posts	I have a jag with o-rings that fits very tightly to the bore; I was able to push the case out by placing a patch on this and pushing it through from the muzzle end. Attached Images

02-01-2018, 10:35 AM	#13
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	The case separation is happening just above the thicker web near the base of the cartridge. It's an adjustment problem with the die used to draw the cartridge case from a bronze pellet. Over-drawing the cartridge at this point creates a very thin area that can't tolerate the stretching caused by firing. Your gun's chamber may also be worn too large, making the stretching more extreme. There are techniques for casting the chamber and measuring it for specification. Base separation is always difficult to clean up after. At least the gun won't generally go back into battery after the failure. On your first picture of the failing recovered case front, you can also see how far off the position of the cartridge shoulder is. If I remember correctly, this case headspaces on the shoulder of the cartridge. Obviously there is something very wrong here from the shape of the fired cartridge. It's almost as if the gun was out of battery and in the process of extracting while the powder was still burning and expanding, forcing part of the shoulder against the rear chamber wall. This could be caused by defective or contaminated powder burning erratically. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

02-01-2018, 01:17 PM	#14
ttarp User Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: S.E. Texas Posts: 24 Thanks: 11 Thanked 15 Times in 10 Posts	After trying a few different size patches, I finally got the rest of the casing out. So the general consensus is to chalk it up to bad luck/manufacturing defect and carry on? This unnerved me a bit, the few magazines I've tried of PPU functioned fine, I may just stick with it from now on. Attached Thumbnails

02-01-2018, 01:42 PM	#15
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	Wire brush the chamber well, and move on. Lightning seems to strike on the .30 Fiocchi, causing the case separations. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

02-02-2018, 07:34 PM	#16
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	That case expansion is abnormal. Double check that it's in .30 Luger caliber (see the FAQ for photos) and measure the chamber to see if it's in specification. I've never seen that much case expansion in any handgun using the proper ammunition. The SAAMI cartridge specifications are here: http://saami.org/specifications_and_...MI_CFPandR.pdf (Yes i know SAAMI wasn't around when Lugers were developed, but their specs are useful). See pages 36 and 43 for dimensional drawings. The .30 Luger cartridge case has a considerable taper. it almost looks like your chamber was reamed out larger than the base. It almost looks like it's been loaded and fired from a 9mm chamber. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

02-05-2018, 03:27 PM	#17
Freischütz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Eastern Washington Posts: 125 Thanks: 9 Thanked 26 Times in 19 Posts	Interesting position of the shoulder on the fired round.

02-06-2018, 10:27 AM	#18
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	That's what makes me think that the .30 Luger round is being fired from a 9mm Chamber. The .30 Luger chamber is tapered like the cartridge. The fired case shows squared off expansion in front, which is what you'd see in a 9mm chamber. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

02-06-2018, 02:05 PM	#19
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	Surely he has fired other rounds! What do they look like? __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

02-06-2018, 02:45 PM	#20
ttarp User Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: S.E. Texas Posts: 24 Thanks: 11 Thanked 15 Times in 10 Posts	Sorry, been tied up with work. Definitely a .30 Luger, a 9mm won't even come close to chambering. I see the neck is abnormally long on the bad round. left to right, live PPU, empty PPU, empty Fiocchi, Fiocchi lightning strike. Attached Thumbnails