New Army 9mm Ammo Specs

[Sieger]

Hi All,

Well, the specs are out on the U.S. Army's new 9mm pistol ammunition.

Please see Shooting Times, July 2020, page 59 for the details.

Manufactured by Winchester, the civilian release is being sold under the name "Active Duty".

Its 115 grain, FMJ-FP bullet, harkens back to the original truncated cone, D.W.M. designed, Parabellum bullet, as used by the German Army of WWI.

Velocity was measured, 12 feet from the muzzle, as shot through a 4inch barrel, at an amazing 1,296 fps.!

This represents a 20.4% overload as compared to original German Army issue 123 grain truncated cone ammo. (1,296 divided by 1,076 equals 1.204).

I like Winchester's bullet design that looks almost identical to some of their 130 grainers I have very successfully and very accurately handloaded in Lugers in the past. Midway, U.S.A. appears to be selling these 115 grain Flat Point bullets for handloading as well.

Because of the overload discussed above... FIRE THIS AMMO IN LUGERS AT YOUR OWN RISK!!!


Sieger

[Doubs]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Its 115 grain, FMJ-FP bullet, harkens back to the original truncated cone, D.W.M. designed, Parabellum bullet, as used by the German Army of WWI.

Velocity was measured, 12 feet from the muzzle, as shot through a 4inch barrel, at an amazing 1,296 fps.!

Because of the overload discussed above... FIRE THIS AMMO IN LUGERS AT YOUR OWN RISK!!! Sieger

THAT is a HOT load. I wonder what a steady diet of those will do to the new Sig pistols the military is using? I wouldn't let that load near my Lugers.

For sometime now I've been using the Berry's plated 115 grain FBFN bullet (truncated cone like the original Luger bullet) over 5.6 grains of CFE Pistol powder with outstanding results. My Lugers love that load and it also works well in my other 9mm handguns including my Stribog.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Doubs

THAT is a HOT load. I wonder what a steady diet of those will do to the new Sig pistols the military is using? I wouldn't let that load near my Lugers.

For sometime now I've been using the Berry's plated 115 grain FBFN bullet (truncated cone like the original Luger bullet) over 5.6 grains of CFE Pistol powder with outstanding results. My Lugers love that load and it also works well in my other 9mm handguns including my Stribog.

Dobbs,

At that velocity, Winchester must be loading enriched uranium instead of pistol powder!

Ha!


Sieger

[tomaustin]

is this stuff going to be sitting on the shelf mixed in with our regular loads ?

got a picture of the box ?

don't want anything to do with it................

[gunbugs]

From the Winchester ammo website. Probably a reliable source of info on Winchester ammo. But who knows?https://winchester.com/Products/Ammu...Duty-/WIN9MHSC

[mrerick]

Assuming that they use their own components and powder, you can look up all the powders that Winchester offers on the Hodgdon site.

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol


None of these powders at their max load approach 1,300 FPS in a 115gn projectile.

This is more of a sub-machine gun load than a pistol load. Similar to "NATO" power... They quote pressure 15% higher than standard velocity 9mm Luger for this new round.

NATO 9mm develops 36,500PSI pressure. Normal 9mm is 34,100 PSI (CIP standards).

Reference to the SAAMI standards show that this round is above _+P loadings...

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...sting-Copy.pdf

Here's the Winchester site for the round with a picture of the box:

https://winchester.com/Products/Ammu...uty-/WIN9MHSCL

And discussion of the new M1152 round:

https://www.guns.com/news/2019/11/12...ctive-duty-9mm

[gunbugs]

Most, if not all of the major ammunition manufacturers do not use the commonly available "cannister" powders. They buy bulk lots from the powder makers, and tailor the loads to what powder they have bought. They can specify a certain type, ball, flake, extruded, with a preferred burning rate, but will have to "work up" a load depending on the particular characteristics of the powder received. In a nutshell, they aren't using the powders we use. The cannister powders we buy are kept to very tight specifications, so if we buy a pound of Reloader 15 today, and another pound of Reloader 15 five years from now, it'll be very close to the same. The ammo makers don't buy 100 pounds at a time, they buy a ton or 2 at a time. They are oftentimes using powders we can't get.

On a side note, years ago when I was shooting IPSC, I was using a S&W 559 9mm. (Held more bullets, you know). I was loading 6.2 gr of Unique and a magnum primer with a Speer 125 gr JSP, and getting 1270fps over a chronograph. It made "major" on the IPSC power scale. I'm pretty sure it would beat up most guns, but the old S&W just ate that stuff up. It was the 9mm load that would clear a bowling pin off the table. I shot thousands of rounds through that gun, still have it today.

[Kyrie]

Originally Posted by mrerick

Assuming that they use their own components and powder, you can look up all the powders that Winchester offers on the Hodgdon site.

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol


None of these powders at their max load approach 1,300 FPS in a 115gn projectile.

This is more of a sub-machine gun load than a pistol load. Similar to "NATO" power... They quote pressure 15% higher than standard velocity 9mm Luger for this new round.

NATO 9mm develops 36,500PSI pressure. Normal 9mm is 34,100 PSI (CIP standards).

Reference to the SAAMI standards show that this round is above _+P loadings...

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...sting-Copy.pdf

Here's the Winchester site for the round with a picture of the box:

https://winchester.com/Products/Ammu...uty-/WIN9MHSCL

And discussion of the new M1152 round:

https://www.guns.com/news/2019/11/12...ctive-duty-9mm

Respectfully suggest a great deal of caution with this kind of comparison.

Caveat 1:
There is really no such thing as “sub-machinegun ammunition”, as such. Sub-machineguns are just fully automatic firearms that fire a pistol cartridge. Countries that field sub-machineguns and pistols don’t have different types of cartridges for each.

Caveat 2:
There is no such thing as a single NATO standard 9x19 load. Different NATO signatories load their ammunition (pistol or rifle) to whatever standards they feel best meets their military goals.

Caveat 3:
CIP and SAMMI chamber pressures are measured using different methodologies and procedures and cannot be meaningfully compared.

Caveat 4:
Military ammunition is not subject to commercial laws, is usually made to perform to military standards, and may or may not be pressure tested using commercial policies, procedures or methods. This means that any extant published pressure data for military ammunition is irreconcilable with published pressures for commercial ammunition.

Caveat 5:
While chamber pressures and muzzle velocities are related, that relationship is neither direct nor linear. Higher chamber pressures don’t always result in higher muzzle velocities. Lower chamber pressures don’t always result in lower muzzle velocities.

[mrerick]

Is there a source for the information about Winchester's usage of specific powders in commercial loaded rounds?

I teach classes on reloading, and would like to incorporate such information.

This group has published a database of powder characteristics - for example:

https://ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/index.php


They list only one OEM loading powder (a Remmington powder) and no Military powders for some reason.

Here's the sample detail on HP-38 ;

https://ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/sample_...p?powder_id=82

Here's Winchester 231:

https://ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/sample_...?powder_id=397

It's a reasonably comprehensive powder characteristic database, and yet the powders listed are generally ones available commercially to reloaders. It's designed for forensic identification of powders found at a scene, so I wouldn't think they would limit it to just reloading powder (since we produce the vast minority of ammunition compared to OEM manufacture).

I'm trying to understand why Winchester would create a special powder just for their own internal usage, and yet it not be listed on this analysis database - which appears pretty comprehensive.

[gunbugs]

I would presume, from the introduction to the database, that they are limiting their analysis to commonly available reloading powders. The database is primarily used to analyze residue from IED's, not from residue from gunshot wounds. Again, the powders used by the factories may, or may not be commonly available. Lot to lot variations in bulk powder preclude use by handloaders seeking consistent results from various lots. Sometimes you will see bulk powders available for sale as "surplus" from pulldown ammunition, and they will tell you to cross-reference with a certain powder, but start loads must be "x" percent lower.

[tomaustin]

why is that box marked TRAINING down on the lower right?

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by tomaustin

why is that box marked TRAINING down on the lower right?

It is sold as training ammo, as opposed to target or self defense;
i.e. "marketing".

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by mrerick

Is there a source for the information about Winchester's usage of specific powders in commercial loaded rounds?

I teach classes on reloading, and would like to incorporate such information.

This group has published a database of powder characteristics - for example:

https://ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/index.php


They list only one OEM loading powder (a Remmington powder) and no Military powders for some reason.

Here's the sample detail on HP-38 ;

https://ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/sample_...p?powder_id=82

Here's Winchester 231:

https://ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/sample_...?powder_id=397

It's a reasonably comprehensive powder characteristic database, and yet the powders listed are generally ones available commercially to reloaders. It's designed for forensic identification of powders found at a scene, so I wouldn't think they would limit it to just reloading powder (since we produce the vast minority of ammunition compared to OEM manufacture).

I'm trying to understand why Winchester would create a special powder just for their own internal usage, and yet it not be listed on this analysis database - which appears pretty comprehensive.

Mrerick,

I have read that Winchester uses, what is commercially called, Power Pistol (an Alliant Powder) to load its regular NATO Spec ammunition. As stated above, it's probably delivered to them as a bulk type powder vs a commercial canister powder.

Sieger

[grantman]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi All,

Well, the specs are out on the U.S. Army's new 9mm pistol ammunition.

Please see Shooting Times, July 2020, page 59 for the details.

Manufactured by Winchester, the civilian release is being sold under the name "Active Duty".

Its 115 grain, FMJ-FP bullet, harkens back to the original truncated cone, D.W.M. designed, Parabellum bullet, as used by the German Army of WWI.

Velocity was measured, 12 feet from the muzzle, as shot through a 4inch barrel, at an amazing 1,296 fps.!

This represents a 20.4% overload as compared to original German Army issue 123 grain truncated cone ammo. (1,296 divided by 1,076 equals 1.204).

I like Winchester's bullet design that looks almost identical to some of their 130 grainers I have very successfully and very accurately handloaded in Lugers in the past. Midway, U.S.A. appears to be selling these 115 grain Flat Point bullets for handloading as well.

Because of the overload discussed above... FIRE THIS AMMO IN LUGERS AT YOUR OWN RISK!!!


Sieger

Thanks for the info...I think I saw some of this ammo for sale...for 59.00 per 50 rd. box!

[Kyrie]

Exceptions:

Chamber pressure and velocity measurements are always done from a pressure test barrel. Such barrels are usually around ten inches in length.

Muzzle velocity and chamber pressures (note plural) are related, but the relationship is not linear. Trying to guess chamber pressures based on muzzle velocity is an unproductive effort.

[tomaustin]

firing that in a vintage Luger would be a very poor decision....may not hurt you, but could/would damage your weapon......this ammo is the same problem as in the m1 Garand world where the idiots want to shoot the modern 30.06 ammo in the ww2 weapons and it just tears up the operating rod on the recoil cycle..(the garand guys can change out the gas port and protect their weapons from that problem if they understand the problem)...but without modification to your Luger, and I don't know any, the pressures are just too great....

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Kyrie

Exceptions:

Chamber pressure and velocity measurements are always done from a pressure test barrel. Such barrels are usually around ten inches in length.

Muzzle velocity and chamber pressures (note plural) are related, but the relationship is not linear. Trying to guess chamber pressures based on muzzle velocity is an unproductive effort.

Hi,

Respectfully, did you read my quote above? Velocity was tested from a 4 inch barrel, not a 10 inch one.

Yes, I agree that muzzle velocity and chamber pressure are related. With a Luger, chamber pressure should not be the real issue, breach block slam should be, however.

Again, use this ammo at your own risk in a Luger!


Sieger.

[Kyrie]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Hi,

Respectfully, did you read my quote above? Velocity was tested from a 4 inch barrel, not a 10 inch one.

Yes, I agree that muzzle velocity and chamber pressure are related. With a Luger, chamber pressure should not be the real issue, breach block slam should be, however.

Again, use this ammo at your own risk in a Luger!


Sieger.

Yes sir, I read your post. Respectfully and with no offense intended, I just don't believe the source you quote is correct.

The source cited is a gun rag. Let's not get too excited over a source that publishes to sell advertisements.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Kyrie

Yes sir, I read your post. Respectfully and with no offense intended, I just don't believe the source you quote is correct.

The source cited is a gun rag. Let's not get too excited over a source that publishes to sell advertisements.

Hi,

We have been down this road many times before regarding NATO Ammo.

Your assertion regarding advertising sales is somewhat illogical to me; as who would they be advertising for, Winchester?

Again, SHOOT AT YOUR OWN RISK in a Luger pistol!


Sieger

[tomaustin]

I would add that if you do fire the ammo in your Luger that you give an accurate report on the results....if it damages your Luger, you must report that...no hiding in the woods to cover your ass....