Interarms Parabellums as C&R Guns

Sieger · 11-06-2003, 10:38 PM

Hi All:

Someone just told me that some of the the Interarms Parabellums of the 1970s and 1980s qualify as C&R guns. I checked and found that the Swiss Pattern pistols were, indeed, listed by the BATFE as C&R guns. Also, the various commeratives built on the P-08 Frame were listed.

I'm just wondering why the later P-08 Frame pistols were left off of the list? Does any one know why?

Sieger

Sieger

Doubs · 11-06-2003, 11:10 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Sieger:
Hi All:
I'm just wondering why the later P-08 Frame pistols were left off of the list? Does any one know why?
Sieger<hr /></blockquote>Most likely because no one has applied to the BATF to have them included.

Sieger · 11-07-2003, 01:51 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Most likely because no one has applied to the BATF to have them included.<hr /></blockquote>Doubs:

You are probably right, but they have had 20 to 30 years to do it.

Sieger

John Sabato · 11-07-2003, 10:29 AM

I don't think they would be inclined to add them or the Stainless Steel (Mitchell, Stoeger, AIMCO, or Orimar) guns to the list simply because they don't meet the 50-year old criteria that the C&R list was designed for... They are not really Curios and are certainly not yet Relics... just reproductions of them. They are modern firearms by any other definition.

Perhaps if enough requests were received, they would consider this step... but somehow I doubt it.

Doubs · 11-07-2003, 12:11 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by John Sabato:
I don't think they would be inclined to add them or the Stainless Steel (Mitchell, Stoeger, AIMCO, or Orimar) guns to the list simply because they don't meet the 50-year old criteria that the C&R list was designed for.<hr /></blockquote>John, I think Sieger's question is if the 1970's Swiss-style Parabellums are C&R, why aren't the Parabellums of the same time period, made by the same company, with the traditional grip contour also C&R? I've often wondered the same thing and it's my opinion that someone requested the Swiss-style Mausers be C&R - and it was approved - while no one has gone to the trouble of submitting the paperwork for the others. Just my thoughts on it.

Sieger · 11-07-2003, 02:51 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by John Sabato:
I don't think they would be inclined to add them or the Stainless Steel (Mitchell, Stoeger, AIMCO, or Orimar) guns to the list simply because they don't meet the 50-year old criteria that the C&R list was designed for... They are not really Curios and are certainly not yet Relics... just reproductions of them. They are modern firearms by any other definition.

Perhaps if enough requests were received, they would consider this step... but somehow I doubt it.<hr /></blockquote>John:

Well, there is no time like the present!! The P-08 frame Interarms Mausers would probably be the best bet for success, as few in relative numbers were made. The current stainless models are still in manufacture, so I agree that they probably wouldn't fly.

Sieger

Ronald Welch · 11-14-2003, 04:08 PM

Hi John
I bought some Aimco and Mitchell with my C&R and I did check with atf before the purchase,but
there seems to be a problem--Seems that each atf districk has different ideas.
In the C&R booklet they do list the guns as C&R.
REGARDS Ron

John Sabato · 11-14-2003, 04:17 PM

I was not aware that the Stainless guns were considered C&R and have seen no documentation to that effect. IF so, that is good news... could you post images of the appropriate pages in the C&R Booklet for the rest of the forum to see?

Here is the URL for the ATF Curio & Relic List Online: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/2001index.htm and I can't find these stainless guns listed... so please share your source so some forum member doesn't get caught in a bind...

Thanks...

Dwight Gruber · 11-15-2003, 01:53 AM

Stainless guns are not included in ATF P 5300.11 (3-2001), the latest version of the list which I am aware of.

However, regarding a couple of other questions in this discussion, in addition to the Swiss-pattern frame 1970s Mausers, the Russian Commemorative, 1900-1975 Commemorative, Bulgarian Commemmorative, and Carbine with stock are also classified as C & R.

--Dwight

Aaron · 11-15-2003, 02:11 AM

My suspicion is that sometimes an influential person makes a request of the ATF and may be given special preference or consideration.

Doubs · 11-16-2003, 12:48 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Aaron:
My suspicion is that sometimes an influential person makes a request of the ATF and may be given special preference or consideration.<hr /></blockquote>I'm not certain that a person has to be influential in order to get a specific gun classed as C&R but it does require filing of the correct paperwork. A review of the list will show "one-off" examples of models with a specific serial number or a range of a few serial numbers. IMO if one example qualifies, then the whole series of the same model should qualify. That's not, unfortunately, the case.

11-06-2003, 10:38 PM	#1
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	Interarms Parabellums as C&R Guns Hi All: Someone just told me that some of the the Interarms Parabellums of the 1970s and 1980s qualify as C&R guns. I checked and found that the Swiss Pattern pistols were, indeed, listed by the BATFE as C&R guns. Also, the various commeratives built on the P-08 Frame were listed. I'm just wondering why the later P-08 Frame pistols were left off of the list? Does any one know why? Sieger Sieger

11-06-2003, 11:10 PM	#2
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,694 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,676 Times in 550 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Sieger: <strong>Hi All: I'm just wondering why the later P-08 Frame pistols were left off of the list? Does any one know why? Sieger</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Most likely because no one has applied to the BATF to have them included.

11-07-2003, 01:51 AM	#3
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Most likely because no one has applied to the BATF to have them included.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Doubs: You are probably right, but they have had 20 to 30 years to do it. Sieger

11-07-2003, 10:29 AM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I don't think they would be inclined to add them or the Stainless Steel (Mitchell, Stoeger, AIMCO, or Orimar) guns to the list simply because they don't meet the 50-year old criteria that the C&R list was designed for... They are not really Curios and are certainly not yet Relics... just reproductions of them. They are modern firearms by any other definition. Perhaps if enough requests were received, they would consider this step... but somehow I doubt it. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-07-2003, 12:11 PM	#5
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,694 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,676 Times in 550 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by John Sabato: <strong>I don't think they would be inclined to add them or the Stainless Steel (Mitchell, Stoeger, AIMCO, or Orimar) guns to the list simply because they don't meet the 50-year old criteria that the C&R list was designed for.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">John, I think Sieger's question is if the 1970's Swiss-style Parabellums are C&R, why aren't the Parabellums of the same time period, made by the same company, with the traditional grip contour also C&R? I've often wondered the same thing and it's my opinion that someone requested the Swiss-style Mausers be C&R - and it was approved - while no one has gone to the trouble of submitting the paperwork for the others. Just my thoughts on it.

11-07-2003, 02:51 PM	#6
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by John Sabato: <strong>I don't think they would be inclined to add them or the Stainless Steel (Mitchell, Stoeger, AIMCO, or Orimar) guns to the list simply because they don't meet the 50-year old criteria that the C&R list was designed for... They are not really Curios and are certainly not yet Relics... just reproductions of them. They are modern firearms by any other definition. Perhaps if enough requests were received, they would consider this step... but somehow I doubt it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">John: Well, there is no time like the present!! The P-08 frame Interarms Mausers would probably be the best bet for success, as few in relative numbers were made. The current stainless models are still in manufacture, so I agree that they probably wouldn't fly. Sieger

11-14-2003, 04:08 PM	#7
Ronald Welch User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Matthews,N.C. Posts: 39 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi John I bought some Aimco and Mitchell with my C&R and I did check with atf before the purchase,but there seems to be a problem--Seems that each atf districk has different ideas. In the C&R booklet they do list the guns as C&R. REGARDS Ron

11-14-2003, 04:17 PM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I was not aware that the Stainless guns were considered C&R and have seen no documentation to that effect. IF so, that is good news... could you post images of the appropriate pages in the C&R Booklet for the rest of the forum to see? Here is the URL for the ATF Curio & Relic List Online: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/2001index.htm and I can't find these stainless guns listed... so please share your source so some forum member doesn't get caught in a bind... Thanks... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-15-2003, 01:53 AM	#9
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,894 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,288 Times in 426 Posts	Stainless guns are not included in ATF P 5300.11 (3-2001), the latest version of the list which I am aware of. However, regarding a couple of other questions in this discussion, in addition to the Swiss-pattern frame 1970s Mausers, the Russian Commemorative, 1900-1975 Commemorative, Bulgarian Commemmorative, and Carbine with stock are also classified as C & R. --Dwight

11-15-2003, 02:11 AM	#10
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	My suspicion is that sometimes an influential person makes a request of the ATF and may be given special preference or consideration.

11-16-2003, 12:48 PM	#11
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,694 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,676 Times in 550 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Aaron: <strong>My suspicion is that sometimes an influential person makes a request of the ATF and may be given special preference or consideration.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I'm not certain that a person has to be influential in order to get a specific gun classed as C&R but it does require filing of the correct paperwork. A review of the list will show "one-off" examples of models with a specific serial number or a range of a few serial numbers. IMO if one example qualifies, then the whole series of the same model should qualify. That's not, unfortunately, the case.