French 22 Luger ?

lfid · 04-07-2013, 05:57 AM

appears that in Sept 1989 a non-Erma decent luger profile 22 was maybe coming to market

http://www.ebay.com/itm/310533222609...84.m1423.l2649

anyone seen or know details like number made etc ?

thanks
Bill

Deejay · 06-10-2019, 05:17 AM

Although the question was asked six years ago, I felt I could shed some light on the matter, as I happen to have done some research on this subject quite recently.

As you might know, European gun laws are much more stringent than U.S. ones - French gun laws, though they are not the toughest gun laws in Europe, used to be less restrictive in the late 80s and early 90s, when you could buy or order a semi-auto 22. LR rifle provided you were 18 or more. In late 1987, a law (or more precisely a "décret") was passed that liberalized the sale of single-shot .22 LR pistols and revolvers provided they were more than 28 cm (11 inches) long. This is when the story of single-shot .22 LR Lugers begin.

The model lfid was asking about was first advertised in late 1989, even though the first models seem to have been made in 1988 (IJ year code from the Cologne proof house on the guns), and imported by Monsieur Edouard Mosser into France, or more precisely Alsace, a province which has always been closer to Germany both geographically and culturally.

These single-shot "Luger 22" pistols were made in West Germany by Fritz Barthelmes Sportwaffenfabrik GmbH (Heidenheim-Oggenhausen), most probably from the Record Mod. 08 blank-firing pistols the company was producing at the time.

What I find puzzzling is the fact that Fritz Barthelmes was able to call his .22 LR pistol a "Luger" - I thought that Stoeger owned the rights on the name Luger.

There were apparently two versions of this Luger 22: the early one and a Mk II version, but I am at a loss as to the changes that may have been made, as I own neither of these pistols.

Judging by the proof marks I could see here and there on the Internet, this handgun was still in production in 1998 at Enser-Sportwaffen, that is 3 years after they were classified as restricted firearms in France!

Vlim · 06-10-2019, 07:59 AM

Interesting.

I have a Mauser branded .22lr 'revolver' in a single shot configutation. Same era.

Deejay · 06-10-2019, 11:27 AM

Vlim, the odds are that your Mauser revolver was made especially for the French market of that time.

Vlim · 06-10-2019, 11:34 AM

Nice article. I indeed believe this was specifically intended for the French market between 89 and 95.

'Made in West-Germany' would place the L22 between 1987 and 1991. Proof date is later.

Problem is: now I need one of those .22 Lugers

Deejay · 06-10-2019, 12:17 PM

There is one on sale here : https://www.naturabuy.fr/Luger-22-ca...m-5411002.html

But the reason why nobody (me included) buys it is because it is a tad bit overpriced: these single-shot Luger 22 pistols usually sell for € 150 or so over here.

Vlim · 06-10-2019, 01:39 PM

If you find one for a decent price, and an export source for EU export, let me know.

HerrKaiser · 06-10-2019, 02:02 PM

Honest question, especially in the case of the revolver, is there a way to exchange the mechanisms like the cylinder for it to be a “regular” .22 revolver with 6 chambers instead? Likewise, can the .22 Luger be modified to accept more than a single shot for those who own them stateside?

Deejay · 06-10-2019, 02:34 PM

Honesty I think that the necessary steps must have been taken to make sure that these single-shot pistols could never be turned into semi-automatic fire-arms.

HerrKaiser · 06-10-2019, 02:50 PM

As I figured, but was hoping that I’d be wrong.

And technically, the revolver never will be a semi-auto pistol. It will always be a revolver no matter how many chambers it has. But that misses the point I realize you are making in regards to them being confined to single shot only. Guess if I want to shoot a luger-style action in .22 I’ll have to save up for a conversion kit or deal with one of those ugly looking Stoeger “Lugers” out there.

Kyrie · 06-10-2019, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HerrKaiser

As I figured, but was hoping that I’d be wrong.

And technically, the revolver never will be a semi-auto pistol. It will always be a revolver no matter how many chambers it has.
---snip ---

Forgive a digression: the Webley-Fosbery semi-automatic revolver.

The character "Zed" (played by Sean Connery) in the move "Zardoz" had one. Watching him rack the cylinder put some torque on my head.

Vlim · 06-10-2019, 03:08 PM

The 'revolver' actually isnt. As there is no cilinder timing mechanism the 'cilinder' is just a fancy looking large breech block.

HerrKaiser · 06-10-2019, 09:18 PM

I can’t believe I forgot about the Webley-Fosberry system. Whoops!

Vlim · 06-22-2022, 07:15 PM

An older thread, but I'm happy to report I bought a Luger mkII in .22lr at an auction. More details when it gets here, which may take a while.

sheepherder · 06-22-2022, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

An older thread, but I'm happy to report I bought a Luger mkII in .22lr at an auction. More details when it gets here, which may take a while.

Looking forward to your review. Lots of questions.

spangy · 06-23-2022, 07:12 AM

A very nice addition to any collection Vlim.

Congratulations

Vlim · 06-23-2022, 08:59 AM

The manufacturing seems to have been interesting, as at least several companies were involved.

One appears to have bankrupted in 2000. There may be involvement of the company of the Barthelmes family (the old Barthelmes worked for Walther and was a driving force behind the P38 design). After the war he produced blank firing guns and air guns. The 'Record' air gun brand.

Interesting, as Record also made a series of Mauser branded air guns.

Between 1997 and 2000, Enser made the Record air guns. Until Enser went bankrupt and the Barthelmes family set up a new company.

The tooling from several Enser products were bought by several other companies and are still used to manufacture blank firing and air guns today. Including 2 Luger style models, the P04 with a long barrel and the P08 with a short barrel by a company called ME Sportwaffen.

04-07-2013, 05:57 AM	#1
lfid Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wichita, KS USA Posts: 453 Thanks: 573 Thanked 96 Times in 53 Posts	French 22 Luger ? appears that in Sept 1989 a non-Erma decent luger profile 22 was maybe coming to market http://www.ebay.com/itm/310533222609...84.m1423.l2649 anyone seen or know details like number made etc ? thanks Bill

06-10-2019, 07:59 AM	#3
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Interesting. I have a Mauser branded .22lr 'revolver' in a single shot configutation. Same era. Attached Thumbnails

06-10-2019, 02:02 PM	#8
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 847 Thanks: 782 Thanked 860 Times in 410 Posts	Honest question, especially in the case of the revolver, is there a way to exchange the mechanisms like the cylinder for it to be a “regular” .22 revolver with 6 chambers instead? Likewise, can the .22 Luger be modified to accept more than a single shot for those who own them stateside? __________________ -QM Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22

06-10-2019, 02:50 PM	#10
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 847 Thanks: 782 Thanked 860 Times in 410 Posts	As I figured, but was hoping that I’d be wrong. And technically, the revolver never will be a semi-auto pistol. It will always be a revolver no matter how many chambers it has. But that misses the point I realize you are making in regards to them being confined to single shot only. Guess if I want to shoot a luger-style action in .22 I’ll have to save up for a conversion kit or deal with one of those ugly looking Stoeger “Lugers” out there. __________________ -QM Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22

06-10-2019, 09:18 PM	#13
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 847 Thanks: 782 Thanked 860 Times in 410 Posts	I can’t believe I forgot about the Webley-Fosberry system. Whoops! __________________ -QM Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22

06-10-2019, 05:17 AM	#2
Deejay New User Join Date: Jun 2019 Location: France Posts: 4 Thanks: 3 Thanked 20 Times in 3 Posts	Although the question was asked six years ago, I felt I could shed some light on the matter, as I happen to have done some research on this subject quite recently. As you might know, European gun laws are much more stringent than U.S. ones - French gun laws, though they are not the toughest gun laws in Europe, used to be less restrictive in the late 80s and early 90s, when you could buy or order a semi-auto 22. LR rifle provided you were 18 or more. In late 1987, a law (or more precisely a "décret") was passed that liberalized the sale of single-shot .22 LR pistols and revolvers provided they were more than 28 cm (11 inches) long. This is when the story of single-shot .22 LR Lugers begin. The model lfid was asking about was first advertised in late 1989, even though the first models seem to have been made in 1988 (IJ year code from the Cologne proof house on the guns), and imported by Monsieur Edouard Mosser into France, or more precisely Alsace, a province which has always been closer to Germany both geographically and culturally. These single-shot "Luger 22" pistols were made in West Germany by Fritz Barthelmes Sportwaffenfabrik GmbH (Heidenheim-Oggenhausen), most probably from the Record Mod. 08 blank-firing pistols the company was producing at the time. What I find puzzzling is the fact that Fritz Barthelmes was able to call his .22 LR pistol a "Luger" - I thought that Stoeger owned the rights on the name Luger. There were apparently two versions of this Luger 22: the early one and a Mk II version, but I am at a loss as to the changes that may have been made, as I own neither of these pistols. Judging by the proof marks I could see here and there on the Internet, this handgun was still in production in 1998 at Enser-Sportwaffen, that is 3 years after they were classified as restricted firearms in France!

06-10-2019, 11:27 AM	#4
Deejay New User Join Date: Jun 2019 Location: France Posts: 4 Thanks: 3 Thanked 20 Times in 3 Posts	Vlim, the odds are that your Mauser revolver was made especially for the French market of that time.

06-10-2019, 11:34 AM	#5
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Nice article. I indeed believe this was specifically intended for the French market between 89 and 95. 'Made in West-Germany' would place the L22 between 1987 and 1991. Proof date is later. Problem is: now I need one of those .22 Lugers

06-10-2019, 12:17 PM	#6
Deejay New User Join Date: Jun 2019 Location: France Posts: 4 Thanks: 3 Thanked 20 Times in 3 Posts	There is one on sale here : https://www.naturabuy.fr/Luger-22-ca...m-5411002.html But the reason why nobody (me included) buys it is because it is a tad bit overpriced: these single-shot Luger 22 pistols usually sell for € 150 or so over here.

06-10-2019, 01:39 PM	#7
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	If you find one for a decent price, and an export source for EU export, let me know.

06-10-2019, 02:34 PM	#9
Deejay New User Join Date: Jun 2019 Location: France Posts: 4 Thanks: 3 Thanked 20 Times in 3 Posts	Honesty I think that the necessary steps must have been taken to make sure that these single-shot pistols could never be turned into semi-automatic fire-arms.

06-10-2019, 03:08 PM	#12
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	The 'revolver' actually isnt. As there is no cilinder timing mechanism the 'cilinder' is just a fancy looking large breech block.

06-22-2022, 07:15 PM	#14
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	An older thread, but I'm happy to report I bought a Luger mkII in .22lr at an auction. More details when it gets here, which may take a while. Attached Thumbnails

06-23-2022, 07:12 AM	#16
spangy Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2020 Location: Winnipeg, Canada Posts: 617 Thanks: 3,065 Thanked 1,057 Times in 429 Posts	A very nice addition to any collection Vlim. Congratulations __________________ Whoever said that "money can't buy you happiness" never bought a Luger. WTB - Take Down Lever & Trigger Plate (#90) for an Imperial Artillery.

06-23-2022, 08:59 AM	#17
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	The manufacturing seems to have been interesting, as at least several companies were involved. One appears to have bankrupted in 2000. There may be involvement of the company of the Barthelmes family (the old Barthelmes worked for Walther and was a driving force behind the P38 design). After the war he produced blank firing guns and air guns. The 'Record' air gun brand. Interesting, as Record also made a series of Mauser branded air guns. Between 1997 and 2000, Enser made the Record air guns. Until Enser went bankrupt and the Barthelmes family set up a new company. The tooling from several Enser products were bought by several other companies and are still used to manufacture blank firing and air guns today. Including 2 Luger style models, the P04 with a long barrel and the P08 with a short barrel by a company called ME Sportwaffen.