Simpson Suhl Luger Dated 1940 ??

vdiehl · 08-10-2003, 04:19 AM

I looked at a luger today from a Korean war vet that was Simpson marked, chamber dated 1940. He said he got it off of a dead North Korean. It was in a 1940 dated holster. It was all matching except the sear bar. The number was 194. It had two Nazi eagle proofs on the bottom of the barrel.

From what little I know about Simpson Lugers I thought the factory was disassembled in 1934 and the machinery went to Mauser. Can any of you fellows help me understand this piece. Were Simpson marked lugers made until 1940?

kidvett · 08-10-2003, 05:38 AM

Your pistol can not be a genuine Simson if it bears a chamber date of 1940!

Simson's Lugers were all military guns ( very few commercials & even less with grip safety ) starting with WWI reworks ( dated 1917 or 1918 or blank chamber ). Dated Simsons range from 1925 to 1928 and last of the Simsons production pistols will have the S toggle. Some Simson Reworks of the Nazi Era exists but are mostly WWI dated guns.

Hope this small info helps a bit...

kidvett <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

John St · 08-10-2003, 05:56 AM

I have a Simpson "Suhl" shotgun in 16 gauge.
It's a double S/S, and is kind of wide in patterns.
I love it because it cost me 175 dollars from Hanau, GE.
It is an open patterning shotgun suited to dove in my state here.
The gist is that "Suhl" or "Simpson" from Germany is better than what we offer during or advanced from this reputable company.
But this is my opinion, as I lived in Germany and hunted according to their standards; which are more stringent than ours in USA.

John St.

vdiehl · 08-12-2003, 03:40 PM

Here are the markings on the luger in question.
It is numbered 194 except the barrel #42 and the sear bar # 34.

Right side---spread wing eagle base of barrel
spread wing eagle below on frame
Both poorly stamped so you cannot make out anything at the feet of the eagle.

Barrel bottom---Eagle N
Eagle ?
Simpson Toggle--Eagle 6 and #194
Sideplate Crown F # 194
Take down lever Crown ? # 94

All numbers same size. 9 is egg shaped.

Barrel bore is excellent.

How much should be offered on a Vet bring back missmatch like this one?

vdiehl · 08-12-2003, 03:55 PM

ADMIN: Vic, I moved and made the pics show, hope that was ok, Ed

Edward Tinker · 08-12-2003, 04:01 PM

Vic, it is "possible" it is a Vet Bring back. No offense, but it is unlikely. There was "allied", i.e. United Nations Forces there that had 9mm, but the Chinese and North Koreans did not. There were Japanese Nambu's there, but many were captured by the Koreans after the war.

And, as any gun would be used if available and anything is possible.. But I personnaly doubt it, that being said, a shooter Luger goes for $350-$550 and since it is Simson (shouldn't be SimPson, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> or there really is something bogus), Simsons are prized and I bet the value, even as a shooter would be a 100 to $150 more.

Ed

vdiehl · 08-12-2003, 04:52 PM

Ed:

I never watched the Simpsons !!! but I guess it must have clouded my spelling. The vet is the right age for Korean war and swears that it came off of a dead North Korean---who knows. I did talk to a collector last night that said he got some nice Lugers from Vietnam vets ????? Thanks for the pricing information. Do the proofs tell anything other that a parts gun? Are the numbers Simson type?

I only own one Luger, a 1918; but they are certainly a fascination for me.

Thanks for taking the time. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Vic

Herb · 08-12-2003, 05:38 PM

Vdiehl, from your description that definitely is not a Simson. Judging from the color of the ejector my guess is that it is a Mauser reciever onto which someone stuck a Simson toggle. If it was a Simson every part on it would be proofed with the eagle/6 proof. The picture shows the correct acceptance stampings on the right side of the reciever for a Simson Luger. If the seller is demanding a higher price because it is Simson, he is either misinformed or a crook.

vdiehl · 08-12-2003, 06:11 PM

Knowledge is certainly powerful!

Thanks!

Vic

kidvett · 08-13-2003, 01:26 AM

Vdiehl,

Be sure to look carefully at the mag as it could be a Simson's mag. Check the base & spine for the E/6 Proof...

kidvett

Edward Tinker · 08-13-2003, 01:30 AM

Vic, these boards are great, as everyone remembers or has a say or help in so many ways!

Great and can keep you from blowing a lot of money!

Ed

vdiehl · 08-13-2003, 11:32 AM

Checked the mag and it is not proofed with the Eagle 6.

I know so little about lugers, but it is really fun to learn. This luger has generated some interest on another forum as well. I have been contacted by a collector that feels this is a legit rework and needs to be examined very closely by a knowledgeable expert.

It can never be more than it is, but odd ball out of the woodwork military stuff is always interesting.

Thanks again for all of your input.

vdiehl · 08-13-2003, 09:00 PM

I just received an email from a knowledgeable collector that identifies this as a German rework based on the proofs from Sam Costanzo's reference.

vdiehl · 08-13-2003, 09:03 PM

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/SIMP6.jpg

vdiehl · 08-13-2003, 09:05 PM

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/SIMP7.jpg

vdiehl · 08-13-2003, 09:07 PM

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/SIMP8.jpg

Pete Ebbink · 08-13-2003, 09:24 PM

Hello Vic,

Could you let us know what page number in the Costanzo book your collector friend has referenced to conclude this is a rework ?

I cannot see enough detail in your photo to match up with the "eagles" Costanzo lists in chapters 3 and 4 :

Also, who is thought to have done the rework ?

Thanks,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

vdiehl · 08-14-2003, 12:01 AM

Pete:

Please see the lengthy post on Germandaggers.com under The Barry Morgan Firearms Forum. I believe all of your questions will be answered.

Vic

Pete Ebbink · 08-14-2003, 12:47 AM

Thanks, Vic...will log on and learn all about your pistol.

Thanks and Best Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

vdiehl · 08-22-2003, 05:21 PM

I brought this Simson back up as I was finally able to take ownership of the gun and get some decent shots of the proofs on the barrel. The Eagle J and Eagle N are pretty distinctive. The Eagle on the barrel and frame are not distinct due to overstamping.

08-12-2003, 04:01 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,932 Thanks: 2,032 Thanked 4,528 Times in 2,091 Posts	Vic, it is "possible" it is a Vet Bring back. No offense, but it is unlikely. There was "allied", i.e. United Nations Forces there that had 9mm, but the Chinese and North Koreans did not. There were Japanese Nambu's there, but many were captured by the Koreans after the war. And, as any gun would be used if available and anything is possible.. But I personnaly doubt it, that being said, a shooter Luger goes for $350-$550 and since it is Simson (shouldn't be SimPson, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> or there really is something bogus), Simsons are prized and I bet the value, even as a shooter would be a 100 to $150 more. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-12-2003, 05:38 PM	#8
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Vdiehl, from your description that definitely is not a Simson. Judging from the color of the ejector my guess is that it is a Mauser reciever onto which someone stuck a Simson toggle. If it was a Simson every part on it would be proofed with the eagle/6 proof. The picture shows the correct acceptance stampings on the right side of the reciever for a Simson Luger. If the seller is demanding a higher price because it is Simson, he is either misinformed or a crook. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

08-13-2003, 01:30 AM	#11
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,932 Thanks: 2,032 Thanked 4,528 Times in 2,091 Posts	Vic, these boards are great, as everyone remembers or has a say or help in so many ways! Great and can keep you from blowing a lot of money! Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-10-2003, 04:19 AM	#1
vdiehl User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Simpson Suhl Luger Dated 1940 ?? I looked at a luger today from a Korean war vet that was Simpson marked, chamber dated 1940. He said he got it off of a dead North Korean. It was in a 1940 dated holster. It was all matching except the sear bar. The number was 194. It had two Nazi eagle proofs on the bottom of the barrel. From what little I know about Simpson Lugers I thought the factory was disassembled in 1934 and the machinery went to Mauser. Can any of you fellows help me understand this piece. Were Simpson marked lugers made until 1940?

08-10-2003, 05:38 AM	#2
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Your pistol can not be a genuine Simson if it bears a chamber date of 1940! Simson's Lugers were all military guns ( very few commercials & even less with grip safety ) starting with WWI reworks ( dated 1917 or 1918 or blank chamber ). Dated Simsons range from 1925 to 1928 and last of the Simsons production pistols will have the S toggle. Some Simson Reworks of the Nazi Era exists but are mostly WWI dated guns. Hope this small info helps a bit... kidvett <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

08-10-2003, 05:56 AM	#3
John St User Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 48 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have a Simpson "Suhl" shotgun in 16 gauge. It's a double S/S, and is kind of wide in patterns. I love it because it cost me 175 dollars from Hanau, GE. It is an open patterning shotgun suited to dove in my state here. The gist is that "Suhl" or "Simpson" from Germany is better than what we offer during or advanced from this reputable company. But this is my opinion, as I lived in Germany and hunted according to their standards; which are more stringent than ours in USA. John St.

08-12-2003, 03:40 PM	#4
vdiehl User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Here are the markings on the luger in question. It is numbered 194 except the barrel #42 and the sear bar # 34. Right side---spread wing eagle base of barrel spread wing eagle below on frame Both poorly stamped so you cannot make out anything at the feet of the eagle. Barrel bottom---Eagle N Eagle ? Simpson Toggle--Eagle 6 and #194 Sideplate Crown F # 194 Take down lever Crown ? # 94 All numbers same size. 9 is egg shaped. Barrel bore is excellent. How much should be offered on a Vet bring back missmatch like this one?

08-12-2003, 03:55 PM	#5
vdiehl User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	ADMIN: Vic, I moved and made the pics show, hope that was ok, Ed

08-12-2003, 04:52 PM	#7
vdiehl User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Ed: I never watched the Simpsons !!! but I guess it must have clouded my spelling. The vet is the right age for Korean war and swears that it came off of a dead North Korean---who knows. I did talk to a collector last night that said he got some nice Lugers from Vietnam vets ????? Thanks for the pricing information. Do the proofs tell anything other that a parts gun? Are the numbers Simson type? I only own one Luger, a 1918; but they are certainly a fascination for me. Thanks for taking the time. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> Vic

08-12-2003, 06:11 PM	#9
vdiehl User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Knowledge is certainly powerful! Thanks! Vic

08-13-2003, 01:26 AM	#10
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Vdiehl, Be sure to look carefully at the mag as it could be a Simson's mag. Check the base & spine for the E/6 Proof... kidvett

08-13-2003, 11:32 AM	#12
vdiehl User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Checked the mag and it is not proofed with the Eagle 6. I know so little about lugers, but it is really fun to learn. This luger has generated some interest on another forum as well. I have been contacted by a collector that feels this is a legit rework and needs to be examined very closely by a knowledgeable expert. It can never be more than it is, but odd ball out of the woodwork military stuff is always interesting. Thanks again for all of your input.

08-13-2003, 09:00 PM	#13
vdiehl User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I just received an email from a knowledgeable collector that identifies this as a German rework based on the proofs from Sam Costanzo's reference.

08-13-2003, 09:03 PM	#14
vdiehl User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/SIMP6.jpg

08-13-2003, 09:05 PM	#15
vdiehl User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/SIMP7.jpg

08-13-2003, 09:07 PM	#16
vdiehl User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/SIMP8.jpg

08-13-2003, 09:24 PM	#17
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Vic, Could you let us know what page number in the Costanzo book your collector friend has referenced to conclude this is a rework ? I cannot see enough detail in your photo to match up with the "eagles" Costanzo lists in chapters 3 and 4 : Also, who is thought to have done the rework ? Thanks, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

08-14-2003, 12:01 AM	#18
vdiehl User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Pete: Please see the lengthy post on Germandaggers.com under The Barry Morgan Firearms Forum. I believe all of your questions will be answered. Vic

08-14-2003, 12:47 AM	#19
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks, Vic...will log on and learn all about your pistol. Thanks and Best Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

08-22-2003, 05:21 PM	#20
vdiehl User Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I brought this Simson back up as I was finally able to take ownership of the gun and get some decent shots of the proofs on the barrel. The Eagle J and Eagle N are pretty distinctive. The Eagle on the barrel and frame are not distinct due to overstamping.