Fake or real?

Malcolm P. · 10-08-2004, 12:10 PM

I have read several different posts and on websites about the Japanese Lugers. Assuming they are real, which I doubt, how did they end up in the Pacific? Germany and Japan had no real trade contacts by 1940 because of the war, so any shipments of Lugers to Japan are very doubtful. So where did these German Lugers come from?

One thing I suspect is that the Germans did get a test unit in the Pacific sometime after Pearl Harbor. There are scattered reports of Bf-109s shot down in the Pacific in 1942. I have heard a rumor of at least one German POW captured. But more interesting (and personally definitive to me) is my uncle who fought on Guaducanal. He witnessed a Bf-109 shootdown by Wildcats and the plane crashed near him. The markings were German and the instruments were in German.

Of course, if this Lugers originated with the Luftwaffe, then the Lugers should have the appropriate proofs, which I understand they did not. Still, if a test unit got to the South Pacific, then a few Mauser Army Lugers may have been on the trip. But until someone can say that Lugers were definitely shipped to Japan I believe these Lugers are essentially fraudulent fakes that were done to sucker Luger collectors looking for that one-of-a-kind in the late '50s or early '60s.

Edward Tinker · 10-08-2004, 12:47 PM

The Dutch had a colony and about 13 thousand lugers were there when the Japanese took over the islands. So, this is where all the rumors come from. It is for sure that lugers were captured, it is unknown where some of them may have ended up. But, it is also known that many were left in the country / island, because after the war they were used to gain independence from Holland (aka the Netherlands, aka Dutch)...

There is an excellent book called The Dutch Luger that tells how and why lugers were bought for der nederland and well worth the money. Of course I was stationed in Holland for 7 years, so I have a soft spot for those luggeers!

Ed

Pete Ebbink · 10-08-2004, 12:56 PM

Hi Malcolm,

Some GI's made the mistake of referring to some of the Nambu pistols made in Japan as "Japanese Lugers". This might also be some of the source of those stories...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Edward Tinker · 10-08-2004, 01:39 PM

Symantics, words I know, but we see on this forum request for information and value on lugers all the time. Many times they ARE lugers, but sometimes they are Radoms, Broomhandle Mausers, and Nambus. Very common, because a lot of these guns were picked up by the GI and brought home and never looked at again...

Ed

Aaron · 10-08-2004, 01:50 PM

It's hard to imagine Lugers being faked in the fifties and sixties, since the financial gains were very slim at that time. As late as 1964 I was buying and selling prime examples of Lugers for as little as $35, as there was practically no collector interest.

John -Melb · 10-08-2004, 07:34 PM

Small numbers of Lugers were also used in the Pacific by Australian forces, believe it or not.
Some were privately acquired either from an older relative who had served in the First World War, or earlier in the War in North Africa.

An uncle of mine had a Luger under these circumstances, he had acquired it at Tobruk and usually remarked that he had got it when it's previous owner didn't need it anymore.

In some cases, these Lugers had been in private ownership following the First World War and had been "handed in" at the outbreak of the Second.

Prior to our Prime Minister's most recent jihad on privately owned firearms, I was the proud owner of a 1917 DWM Arty with Australian Army property markings.

An old soldier once told me that Lugers were highly prized among units such as "Z Special" and the Independent Companies as the took the same ammunition as the Owen gun.

Lugerdoc · 10-09-2004, 11:32 AM

In the past I have owned both an LPO8 and a C96 that were D arrow D (Australan Army) marked. I agree with the above theory that these were probably WW1 captured guns, recycled for WW2, perhaps for the home guard. TH

John -Melb · 10-10-2004, 06:31 AM

I've seen all manner of firearms from this time frame wearing the D^D, two of the more commone types seem to be .32 Autos (usually ex-bank issue) and M92 32/20 Winchesters, a common sporting rifle at the time. Most of these two types were no doubt issued to the Volunteer Defence Corps.

At the time,(around 42-43) many VDC soldiers were equipped with the .310 Martini Cadet!

My understanding is that most of the Lugers issued were First War trophies that had been handed in during 1940, Thousands of .303's in private hands, were also handed in at this time.

My understanding is that from about late 1943, many P08's on VDC issue were withdrawn for issue to various "special" units, due to amunition compatability with the Owen.

John -Melb · 10-10-2004, 06:42 AM

LugerDoc,
Further to Z Force use of Lugers see

http://www.grantsmilitaria.com/garrett/html/z_spec.htm

I envy your ability to still own and use these great guns. I miss mine greatly.

Regards
john

John Sabato · 10-11-2004, 10:39 AM

Come on over for a visit John... Be glad to allow you the chance to shoot these guns again...

10-08-2004, 12:10 PM	#1
Malcolm P. User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 57 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Fake or real? I have read several different posts and on websites about the Japanese Lugers. Assuming they are real, which I doubt, how did they end up in the Pacific? Germany and Japan had no real trade contacts by 1940 because of the war, so any shipments of Lugers to Japan are very doubtful. So where did these German Lugers come from? One thing I suspect is that the Germans did get a test unit in the Pacific sometime after Pearl Harbor. There are scattered reports of Bf-109s shot down in the Pacific in 1942. I have heard a rumor of at least one German POW captured. But more interesting (and personally definitive to me) is my uncle who fought on Guaducanal. He witnessed a Bf-109 shootdown by Wildcats and the plane crashed near him. The markings were German and the instruments were in German. Of course, if this Lugers originated with the Luftwaffe, then the Lugers should have the appropriate proofs, which I understand they did not. Still, if a test unit got to the South Pacific, then a few Mauser Army Lugers may have been on the trip. But until someone can say that Lugers were definitely shipped to Japan I believe these Lugers are essentially fraudulent fakes that were done to sucker Luger collectors looking for that one-of-a-kind in the late '50s or early '60s.

10-08-2004, 12:47 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,931 Thanks: 2,032 Thanked 4,527 Times in 2,090 Posts	The Dutch had a colony and about 13 thousand lugers were there when the Japanese took over the islands. So, this is where all the rumors come from. It is for sure that lugers were captured, it is unknown where some of them may have ended up. But, it is also known that many were left in the country / island, because after the war they were used to gain independence from Holland (aka the Netherlands, aka Dutch)... There is an excellent book called The Dutch Luger that tells how and why lugers were bought for der nederland and well worth the money. Of course I was stationed in Holland for 7 years, so I have a soft spot for those luggeers! Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-08-2004, 01:39 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,931 Thanks: 2,032 Thanked 4,527 Times in 2,090 Posts	Symantics, words I know, but we see on this forum request for information and value on lugers all the time. Many times they ARE lugers, but sometimes they are Radoms, Broomhandle Mausers, and Nambus. Very common, because a lot of these guns were picked up by the GI and brought home and never looked at again... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-09-2004, 11:32 AM	#7
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	In the past I have owned both an LPO8 and a C96 that were D arrow D (Australan Army) marked. I agree with the above theory that these were probably WW1 captured guns, recycled for WW2, perhaps for the home guard. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

10-11-2004, 10:39 AM	#10
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Come on over for a visit John... Be glad to allow you the chance to shoot these guns again... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-08-2004, 12:56 PM	#3
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Malcolm, Some GI's made the mistake of referring to some of the Nambu pistols made in Japan as "Japanese Lugers". This might also be some of the source of those stories... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

10-08-2004, 01:50 PM	#5
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	It's hard to imagine Lugers being faked in the fifties and sixties, since the financial gains were very slim at that time. As late as 1964 I was buying and selling prime examples of Lugers for as little as $35, as there was practically no collector interest.

10-08-2004, 07:34 PM	#6
John -Melb User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melbourne, Peoples Republic of Australia! Posts: 145 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Small numbers of Lugers were also used in the Pacific by Australian forces, believe it or not. Some were privately acquired either from an older relative who had served in the First World War, or earlier in the War in North Africa. An uncle of mine had a Luger under these circumstances, he had acquired it at Tobruk and usually remarked that he had got it when it's previous owner didn't need it anymore. In some cases, these Lugers had been in private ownership following the First World War and had been "handed in" at the outbreak of the Second. Prior to our Prime Minister's most recent jihad on privately owned firearms, I was the proud owner of a 1917 DWM Arty with Australian Army property markings. An old soldier once told me that Lugers were highly prized among units such as "Z Special" and the Independent Companies as the took the same ammunition as the Owen gun.

10-10-2004, 06:31 AM	#8
John -Melb User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melbourne, Peoples Republic of Australia! Posts: 145 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I've seen all manner of firearms from this time frame wearing the D^D, two of the more commone types seem to be .32 Autos (usually ex-bank issue) and M92 32/20 Winchesters, a common sporting rifle at the time. Most of these two types were no doubt issued to the Volunteer Defence Corps. At the time,(around 42-43) many VDC soldiers were equipped with the .310 Martini Cadet! My understanding is that most of the Lugers issued were First War trophies that had been handed in during 1940, Thousands of .303's in private hands, were also handed in at this time. My understanding is that from about late 1943, many P08's on VDC issue were withdrawn for issue to various "special" units, due to amunition compatability with the Owen.

10-10-2004, 06:42 AM	#9
John -Melb User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melbourne, Peoples Republic of Australia! Posts: 145 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	LugerDoc, Further to Z Force use of Lugers see http://www.grantsmilitaria.com/garrett/html/z_spec.htm I envy your ability to still own and use these great guns. I miss mine greatly. Regards john