failed to cycle

cda_berbaro · 12-21-2014, 07:57 AM

hi,
my luger p08 in cal. 9x21 failed to cycle after 3 round every time. Maybe it could be the spring of the magazine that is too weak?
Thanks fao your help

mrerick · 12-21-2014, 10:26 AM

One of the first and easiest things to try is replacing the magazine.

The new ones from Mecgar are said to work well.

A machined FXO E/37 2/1000 period magazine is generally one that will function well too.

I don't personally advise trying to disassemble a magazine and replace it, which usually takes special tooling to do it right.

Also, closely examine the face of the extractor, and check to see if there is dirt in the spring well.

Marc

rhuff · 12-21-2014, 05:42 PM

As Marc so correctly stated, the first thing to try in a malfunctioning Luger, is a good quality modern magazine. They are much cheaper to purchase than the original version, and for the most part, guarantee that the mag spring is good. In the USA, many pretty much stick with the Mec-Gar mags, but others have had success with other makes also, including myself with Stoeger OEM mags. A new modern mag would be my first approach to your problem.

cda_berbaro · 12-22-2014, 02:46 AM

ok, many thanks; i will try

Sieger · 12-24-2014, 02:49 AM

Hi,

I'd measure the OAL of the cartridges you are shooting. If they are shorter than 1.173 inches, you will have a problem in feeding.

Also, what is the velocity of the ammo you are shooting? If its over 1100 fps with a 124 grain bullet, you may have some problems there.

Just some thoughts.

Sieger

cda_berbaro · 12-24-2014, 07:13 AM

hi, why i should have problems with ammo over 1100 fps?. can you explain?
thanks

cda_berbaro · 12-24-2014, 07:43 AM

i have measured the oal of the cartridge and is 1.157.

ithacaartist · 12-24-2014, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cda_berbaro

hi, why i should have problems with ammo over 1100 fps?. can you explain?
thanks

Giuseppe,

Too high a muzzle velocity = too much energy to cycle the pistol. The extra power goes into stressing the action of the gun as the rear toggle link slaps the rear of the frame and the breech block is slammed back against the inside of the link by the energy in excess of that needed to cycle. The advantage of hand loading is that the round can be tuned to a range of power that will dependably cycle the action without bottoming out its parts, one against another. That's why +P or +P+ or ammo marked NATO is not recommended. Standard power loads like Winchester White Box usually fall within the mechanically acceptable range.

rhuff · 12-24-2014, 04:22 PM

I have no experience with the 9X21 cartridge. I deal with 9X17, 9X18, and 9X19 ammo. I handload the 9X17, and 9X19 brass. I can't seem to find much information in my reloading manuals concerning the specs for the 9X21 cartridge. I will do some more research concerning SAMMI specs on OAL and velocity for that round that you are required to shoot in your converted/rechambered Luger.

Added:
From what I have found so far, the std. velocity for the 9X21 round is in the 12-1300fps range. Perhaps the box for your ammo will state it's factory velocity. The OAL is dependent on the bullet and it's profile, like is found in any factory ammo. The longer brass case allows the bullet to be seated deeper so that the OAL can mimic that of the 9mm(9X19) round of 1.169-1.171in. range. Your ammo has a shorter OAL, but still may function with a quality mag.

Sieger · 12-24-2014, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cda_berbaro

i have measured the oal of the cartridge and is 1.157.

Hi,

To reliably feed an 8 cartridge magazine, your OAL is much too short. Remembering that the original OAL for round nosed ammo, according to the original DWM specs., was 1.173 inches. For help on the OAL issue, please see my sticky on how to determine correct OAL when handloading a new type of bullet.

Too "hot" of ammo will "out run" the springs of a Luger. Some choose to replace the recoil spring with a stronger one to help mitigate this.

Frankly, if you handload your own 9X21 ammo, you should be able to find just the right load to properly operate your fine Luger pistol.

Sieger

noylj · 12-25-2014, 07:48 AM

There are two types of 9x21:
1) reloaded EXACTLY like 9x19, including COL. This is so one can shoot 9x19 equivalent loads in countries that ban 9x19 from civilian use
2) reloaded to reach 165-175 powder levels in USA and other countries. COL is usually as long as possible and charges are comparatively hot (though not quite as hot as 9mm Major).
I would "assume" the OP is in (1) camp.

Try a different magazine, unless you discover that the round that won't feed has had the bullet pushed into the case—indicating a much more serious problem.

cda_berbaro · 12-25-2014, 01:27 PM

first i'll try by a new magazine.

rhuff · 12-25-2014, 04:35 PM

Give a good quality mag a try, and hopefully it will solve your problem. If not, then we will put our collective heads together and approach your problem from another angle.

There are members on this forum that also own 9X21 Lugers. I don't know if they shoot them or not, but hopefully they can join in and give us their opinions and results.

cda_berbaro · 12-25-2014, 05:17 PM

Sergio Natali · 12-26-2014, 05:15 AM

I've not shot a LUGER for years now, In fact several years ago I bought a rusty P.08 that I used as some sort of "training-ship" for my general knowledge in the Luger world; I used to take it down, take it to the range and make some sort of practice with it, it was a 9x21 IMI caliber as 9 mm Luger here in Italy is considered "war caliber" (

)
Al the Lgers that now I own have not been shot for yonks.

Sergio

Sergio Natali · 12-26-2014, 05:36 AM

... I would add that now I don't think that I'll ever buy another gun rechambered 9X21 IMI however well kept, as here they cost too much and don't have much real collectible value.

The C96 "Red 9" of which at least 135,000 were made between 1916 and 1918 (so not really scarce) rechambered 9x21 IMI here is being sold for over USD 2400.00 wich to me it's absolutely mad.

Sergio

Sergio Natali · 12-26-2014, 05:40 AM

... I would add that now I don't think that I'll ever buy another gun rechambered 9X21 IMI however well kept, as here they cost too much and don't have much real collectible value.

The C96 "Red 9" of which at least 135,000 were made between 1916 and 1918 (so not really scarce) rechambered 9x21 IMI here is being sold for over USD 2400.00 and the SIG P 210 rechambered as well would cost over usd 1800.00 wich to me it's absolutely mad.

Sergio

cda_berbaro · 01-03-2015, 09:18 AM

Failed solved with a new mec gar magazine; very happy a my luger: 35 rounds without problem.
I would try with fiocchi subsonic for don't stress the gun.
What do you think about it?

sheepherder · 01-03-2015, 10:59 AM

Wikipedia has a good article on the 9x21mm cartridge -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%9721mm

Frankly, I'm noplussed as to why so many Europeans are so 'down' on the 9x21. OAL stays the same as 9x19 and powder charges are identical. I would have no problem with buying/owning a 9x21.

But, if 9x19 is required, and you only have a 9x21 barrel, George Nonte has published his method of bushing chambers for shorter cartridges of the same caliber. I can attach a scan if anyone is interested.

alanint · 01-03-2015, 10:54 AM

You can try the Fiocci subsonic, but I'm guessing that it will not have sufficient power to cycle the gun.

12-21-2014, 07:57 AM	#1
cda_berbaro User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 33 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	failed to cycle hi, my luger p08 in cal. 9x21 failed to cycle after 3 round every time. Maybe it could be the spring of the magazine that is too weak? Thanks fao your help

12-21-2014, 10:26 AM	#2
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	One of the first and easiest things to try is replacing the magazine. The new ones from Mecgar are said to work well. A machined FXO E/37 2/1000 period magazine is generally one that will function well too. I don't personally advise trying to disassemble a magazine and replace it, which usually takes special tooling to do it right. Also, closely examine the face of the extractor, and check to see if there is dirt in the spring well. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

12-26-2014, 05:15 AM	#15
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	I've not shot a LUGER for years now, In fact several years ago I bought a rusty P.08 that I used as some sort of "training-ship" for my general knowledge in the Luger world; I used to take it down, take it to the range and make some sort of practice with it, it was a 9x21 IMI caliber as 9 mm Luger here in Italy is considered "war caliber" ( ) Al the Lgers that now I own have not been shot for yonks. Sergio __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

12-26-2014, 05:36 AM	#16
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	... I would add that now I don't think that I'll ever buy another gun rechambered 9X21 IMI however well kept, as here they cost too much and don't have much real collectible value. The C96 "Red 9" of which at least 135,000 were made between 1916 and 1918 (so not really scarce) rechambered 9x21 IMI here is being sold for over USD 2400.00 wich to me it's absolutely mad. Sergio __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

12-26-2014, 05:40 AM	#17
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	... I would add that now I don't think that I'll ever buy another gun rechambered 9X21 IMI however well kept, as here they cost too much and don't have much real collectible value. The C96 "Red 9" of which at least 135,000 were made between 1916 and 1918 (so not really scarce) rechambered 9x21 IMI here is being sold for over USD 2400.00 and the SIG P 210 rechambered as well would cost over usd 1800.00 wich to me it's absolutely mad. Sergio Attached Thumbnails __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

12-21-2014, 05:42 PM	#3
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,291 Thanks: 2,709 Thanked 972 Times in 717 Posts	As Marc so correctly stated, the first thing to try in a malfunctioning Luger, is a good quality modern magazine. They are much cheaper to purchase than the original version, and for the most part, guarantee that the mag spring is good. In the USA, many pretty much stick with the Mec-Gar mags, but others have had success with other makes also, including myself with Stoeger OEM mags. A new modern mag would be my first approach to your problem.

12-22-2014, 02:46 AM	#4
cda_berbaro User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 33 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	ok, many thanks; i will try

12-24-2014, 02:49 AM	#5
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	Hi, I'd measure the OAL of the cartridges you are shooting. If they are shorter than 1.173 inches, you will have a problem in feeding. Also, what is the velocity of the ammo you are shooting? If its over 1100 fps with a 124 grain bullet, you may have some problems there. Just some thoughts. Sieger

12-24-2014, 07:13 AM	#6
cda_berbaro User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 33 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	hi, why i should have problems with ammo over 1100 fps?. can you explain? thanks

12-24-2014, 07:43 AM	#7
cda_berbaro User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 33 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	i have measured the oal of the cartridge and is 1.157.

12-24-2014, 04:22 PM	#9
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,291 Thanks: 2,709 Thanked 972 Times in 717 Posts	I have no experience with the 9X21 cartridge. I deal with 9X17, 9X18, and 9X19 ammo. I handload the 9X17, and 9X19 brass. I can't seem to find much information in my reloading manuals concerning the specs for the 9X21 cartridge. I will do some more research concerning SAMMI specs on OAL and velocity for that round that you are required to shoot in your converted/rechambered Luger. Added: From what I have found so far, the std. velocity for the 9X21 round is in the 12-1300fps range. Perhaps the box for your ammo will state it's factory velocity. The OAL is dependent on the bullet and it's profile, like is found in any factory ammo. The longer brass case allows the bullet to be seated deeper so that the OAL can mimic that of the 9mm(9X19) round of 1.169-1.171in. range. Your ammo has a shorter OAL, but still may function with a quality mag.

12-25-2014, 07:48 AM	#11
noylj User Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 41 Thanks: 0 Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts	There are two types of 9x21: 1) reloaded EXACTLY like 9x19, including COL. This is so one can shoot 9x19 equivalent loads in countries that ban 9x19 from civilian use 2) reloaded to reach 165-175 powder levels in USA and other countries. COL is usually as long as possible and charges are comparatively hot (though not quite as hot as 9mm Major). I would "assume" the OP is in (1) camp. Try a different magazine, unless you discover that the round that won't feed has had the bullet pushed into the case—indicating a much more serious problem.

12-25-2014, 01:27 PM	#12
cda_berbaro User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 33 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	first i'll try by a new magazine.

12-25-2014, 04:35 PM	#13
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,291 Thanks: 2,709 Thanked 972 Times in 717 Posts	Give a good quality mag a try, and hopefully it will solve your problem. If not, then we will put our collective heads together and approach your problem from another angle. There are members on this forum that also own 9X21 Lugers. I don't know if they shoot them or not, but hopefully they can join in and give us their opinions and results.

12-25-2014, 05:17 PM	#14
cda_berbaro User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 33 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

01-03-2015, 09:18 AM	#18
cda_berbaro User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 33 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Failed solved with a new mec gar magazine; very happy a my luger: 35 rounds without problem. I would try with fiocchi subsonic for don't stress the gun. What do you think about it?

01-03-2015, 10:59 AM	#19
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,183 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	Wikipedia has a good article on the 9x21mm cartridge - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9%C3%9721mm Frankly, I'm noplussed as to why so many Europeans are so 'down' on the 9x21. OAL stays the same as 9x19 and powder charges are identical. I would have no problem with buying/owning a 9x21. But, if 9x19 is required, and you only have a 9x21 barrel, George Nonte has published his method of bushing chambers for shorter cartridges of the same caliber. I can attach a scan if anyone is interested. __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

01-03-2015, 10:54 AM	#20
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	You can try the Fiocci subsonic, but I'm guessing that it will not have sufficient power to cycle the gun.