The Cartridge Counter, Awesome

cirelaw · 07-13-2014, 05:19 PM

I've been reading up on the 1902 Cartridge Counter! My own closest thus far is a 1902 Fat Barrel. They are definitly excellent! I'm been researching the this rare luger and can find only a few references. We know only Fifty were made and all with an American G.H Powel Indicating Device and were manufactured and installed by DWM in Germany. I couldn't find any reference on 'Powell' or his counter invention other than Jan' reference in Cenral Powers page 416~ I have never seen a picture of the mag itself outside of the gun. How did this American made device wind up in Germany and only one specific year and variation? Whose idea?Was there ever a patent? How many still exist? Have any surfaced lately and what is the current total? Why were only 50 made?? Gotta Luv Them and sure wish I owned one! Sounds like cross examination! What are the differences with the 1902 counter and the 1902 fat barrel other than the counter? I'm sure there a fakes~ As a side note Bob Simpson is listing a more current Mauser CC! http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...ducts_id=31738 ~Eric

Lugerdoc · 07-14-2014, 09:37 AM

lifer, I've never owned an original CC mag, but did make one (slotted on both sides with the indicator added to the mag follower) from a standard Mecgar mag. So probably most like the one supplied with the Mauser Parabellum CC commerative. but believe that it would also work with the original 1902 CC, should you need one in the future. TH

guns3545 · 07-14-2014, 10:15 AM

Eric,

The cartridge counter was a product of two factors..

1. The need of the USA Army for a larger caliber than the 7.65 mm cartridge of the 1900 tests. DWM then developed the 9mm version.

2. The marketing need of DWM to get an edge over Colt who was clearly the favorite. The Powell indicating device was thought to give them something because it was developed by an American.

Hence the development of the Model 1902 with the Powell indicating device, AKA the Cartridge Counter.

Fifty were made because that is how many Model 1900 Test guns were exchanged with DWM for 50 Model 1902s with the Powell device. One was actually tested, and there are maybe 40 or so righteous specimens floating around.

Jan Still, in Imperial Lugers, page 210 and following discusses this gun and its history.

Goertz and Sturgess dissect the problem and write extensively about this experiment on page 260 and following of the revised (new) version. It was also discussed in the older version but I no longer own the older version so I canot give you an exact reference..

BTW, here is a link to a thread you started last year that provides a lot of detail on the magazine

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...unter+magazine

John

cirelaw · 07-14-2014, 10:34 AM

Thanks John, my post-stroke brain is not very good with memory~ Thanks for the redirect~ Great thread!! Eric

Ron Wood · 07-14-2014, 10:46 AM

A little added note about the CC grips. As an experiment, two of the guns had their grips cannibalized and the index "window" was added to two 1911 Colt pistols. I have never heard of an account of the Colt experiment.

guns3545 · 07-14-2014, 11:16 AM

Ron,

Good memory. Interesting footnote.

In June, 1908, Crozier authorized that two of the Powell devices be removed from the DWM Model 1902s and fitted to two Colt Model 1907 test pistols in stock. Thus two pistols SN 197 and 200 were retrofitted with the Powell devices.

There were considerables issues with the retrofit because of the 8 cartridge capacity of the Luger and 7 cartridge capacity of the Colt. But they finally got the celluloid and silver strip modified and fitted.

At Fort Riley, the test on SN 197 was not successful; lots of jamming. SN 200 was okay until the firing pin failed.

Doesn't appear that this modification order ever went anywhere. But this was not surprising as the Cavalry was fighting the use of any sort of automatic pistol and was lobbying really hard for a larger caliber double action revolver. The Board had all the problems it could handle just getting the Model 1911 approved in vanilla form and they were still tweaking the Model 1911 as it went into production in 1912 in an effort to get it right for all constituents.

Could not find any evidence of an order for a .45 ACP version of the Powell made from scratch and tested.

But enough, I do not want to highjack Eric's thread.

John

PS: A photograph of SN197 with the Powell device may be found in Meadows, page 77.

cirelaw · 07-14-2014, 11:36 AM

Tk John, my thead often needs a highjacking or two!! You know your research and present it well! ~~Eric

Ron Wood · 07-14-2014, 11:52 AM

Thank you John, and thank you for correcting 1911 to 1907 (I frequently fail in the fine details

)! I have Meadows so I will look it up.
Ron

cirelaw · 07-14-2014, 11:58 AM

Thank you Jan~

Lugerdoc · 07-15-2014, 04:48 PM

Lifer, Thanks for scanning the photo from Mathews, this verifies my opinion that most luger mags were made to only hold 7 rounds, although once the mag spring has weakened an eight round will fit. Unfortunately, I don't see the mag indicator in the window of the above photo. TH

sheepherder · 11-17-2014, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lugerdoc

I don't see the mag indicator in the window of the above photo. TH

Datig has/had a pic of the CC mag in his book; from the look of the grip in the color pic above, the lined mag indicator would only appear in the left half of the window...

Doesn't look like the magazine would be too hard to modify (for someone like Gerry) - Was the gripframe itself modified? Did the 'indicator' stick out past the magazine tube???

sheepherder · 11-18-2014, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lugerdoc

Unfortunately, I don't see the mag indicator in the window of the above photo. TH

Tom, I think that's because the magazine has zero rounds in it...The indicator is up inside the gripframe...

No number on the strip for zero rounds...

Lugerdoc · 11-18-2014, 10:26 AM

I have a new MecGar nickeled mag that has been modified with the indicator as shown above @$150. For $$50 additional, I can add the Swiss metal insert wood bottom as shown above. TH

hayhugh · 11-18-2014, 11:29 AM

This might be the way to go.

https://www.gunpartscorp.com/ad/985140.htm

G.T. · 11-18-2014, 04:40 PM

It would be nice, but just like every bargain...they don't fit a standard pre WW2 luger..... more work then one can stand to make correct?.... But, nice heads up just the same.. til..lat'r...GT

cirelaw · 11-18-2014, 04:58 PM

A little off but were there official holsters that came with the counters? Like the test pieces? Eric

Bill_in_VA · 11-24-2014, 09:48 AM

A "local" gun store (temporarily local) has what they're advertising as a "Mauser 1908 Cartridge Counter." I assume this is a second generation/re-issue, like the 1970s Parabellums?

http://exclusivefirearms.com/product...ge-Counter-9mm

sheepherder · 11-24-2014, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill_in_VA

A "local" gun store (temporarily local) has what they're advertising as a "Mauser 1908 Cartridge Counter." I assume this is a second generation/re-issue, like the 1970s Parabellums?

Looks like a 70's Mauser. Might just be cheap-ol-me, but $4800 seems high...

Heh...They even copied the fat barrel...

kurusu · 11-24-2014, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Looks like a 70's Mauser. Might just be cheap-ol-me, but $4800 seems high...

Heh...They even copied the fat barrel...

Rich is right. Price is high for a circa 1982 pistol.

Maestro · 11-25-2014, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill_in_VA

A "local" gun store (temporarily local) has what they're advertising as a "Mauser 1908 Cartridge Counter." I assume this is a second generation/re-issue, like the 1970s Parabellums?

http://exclusivefirearms.com/product...ge-Counter-9mm

Not a bad price considering the one at auction (I think it was Julia's), sold for $6k + commission!!

07-13-2014, 05:19 PM	#1
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	The Cartridge Counter, Awesome I've been reading up on the 1902 Cartridge Counter! My own closest thus far is a 1902 Fat Barrel. They are definitly excellent! I'm been researching the this rare luger and can find only a few references. We know only Fifty were made and all with an American G.H Powel Indicating Device and were manufactured and installed by DWM in Germany. I couldn't find any reference on 'Powell' or his counter invention other than Jan' reference in Cenral Powers page 416~ I have never seen a picture of the mag itself outside of the gun. How did this American made device wind up in Germany and only one specific year and variation? Whose idea?Was there ever a patent? How many still exist? Have any surfaced lately and what is the current total? Why were only 50 made?? Gotta Luv Them and sure wish I owned one! Sounds like cross examination! What are the differences with the 1902 counter and the 1902 fat barrel other than the counter? I'm sure there a fakes~ As a side note Bob Simpson is listing a more current Mauser CC! http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...ducts_id=31738 ~Eric

07-14-2014, 09:37 AM	#2
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	lifer, I've never owned an original CC mag, but did make one (slotted on both sides with the indicator added to the mag follower) from a standard Mecgar mag. So probably most like the one supplied with the Mauser Parabellum CC commerative. but believe that it would also work with the original 1902 CC, should you need one in the future. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

07-14-2014, 10:46 AM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,020 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,174 Times in 1,701 Posts	A little added note about the CC grips. As an experiment, two of the guns had their grips cannibalized and the index "window" was added to two 1911 Colt pistols. I have never heard of an account of the Colt experiment. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-14-2014, 11:52 AM	#8
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,020 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,174 Times in 1,701 Posts	Thank you John, and thank you for correcting 1911 to 1907 (I frequently fail in the fine details )! I have Meadows so I will look it up. Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-14-2014, 11:58 AM	#9
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Thank you Jan~ Attached Thumbnails

07-14-2014, 10:15 AM	#3
guns3545 Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 437 Thanks: 655 Thanked 492 Times in 218 Posts	Eric, The cartridge counter was a product of two factors.. 1. The need of the USA Army for a larger caliber than the 7.65 mm cartridge of the 1900 tests. DWM then developed the 9mm version. 2. The marketing need of DWM to get an edge over Colt who was clearly the favorite. The Powell indicating device was thought to give them something because it was developed by an American. Hence the development of the Model 1902 with the Powell indicating device, AKA the Cartridge Counter. Fifty were made because that is how many Model 1900 Test guns were exchanged with DWM for 50 Model 1902s with the Powell device. One was actually tested, and there are maybe 40 or so righteous specimens floating around. Jan Still, in Imperial Lugers, page 210 and following discusses this gun and its history. Goertz and Sturgess dissect the problem and write extensively about this experiment on page 260 and following of the revised (new) version. It was also discussed in the older version but I no longer own the older version so I canot give you an exact reference.. BTW, here is a link to a thread you started last year that provides a lot of detail on the magazine http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...unter+magazine John

07-14-2014, 10:34 AM	#4
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Thanks John, my post-stroke brain is not very good with memory~ Thanks for the redirect~ Great thread!! Eric

07-14-2014, 11:16 AM	#6
guns3545 Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 437 Thanks: 655 Thanked 492 Times in 218 Posts	Ron, Good memory. Interesting footnote. In June, 1908, Crozier authorized that two of the Powell devices be removed from the DWM Model 1902s and fitted to two Colt Model 1907 test pistols in stock. Thus two pistols SN 197 and 200 were retrofitted with the Powell devices. There were considerables issues with the retrofit because of the 8 cartridge capacity of the Luger and 7 cartridge capacity of the Colt. But they finally got the celluloid and silver strip modified and fitted. At Fort Riley, the test on SN 197 was not successful; lots of jamming. SN 200 was okay until the firing pin failed. Doesn't appear that this modification order ever went anywhere. But this was not surprising as the Cavalry was fighting the use of any sort of automatic pistol and was lobbying really hard for a larger caliber double action revolver. The Board had all the problems it could handle just getting the Model 1911 approved in vanilla form and they were still tweaking the Model 1911 as it went into production in 1912 in an effort to get it right for all constituents. Could not find any evidence of an order for a .45 ACP version of the Powell made from scratch and tested. But enough, I do not want to highjack Eric's thread. John PS: A photograph of SN197 with the Powell device may be found in Meadows, page 77.

07-14-2014, 11:36 AM	#7
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Tk John, my thead often needs a highjacking or two!! You know your research and present it well! ~~Eric

07-15-2014, 04:48 PM	#10
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Lifer, Thanks for scanning the photo from Mathews, this verifies my opinion that most luger mags were made to only hold 7 rounds, although once the mag spring has weakened an eight round will fit. Unfortunately, I don't see the mag indicator in the window of the above photo. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

11-18-2014, 10:26 AM	#13
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	I have a new MecGar nickeled mag that has been modified with the indicator as shown above @$150. For $$50 additional, I can add the Swiss metal insert wood bottom as shown above. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

11-18-2014, 11:29 AM	#14
hayhugh User Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Florida/Penna Posts: 896 Thanks: 856 Thanked 513 Times in 275 Posts	This might be the way to go. https://www.gunpartscorp.com/ad/985140.htm

11-18-2014, 04:40 PM	#15
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,507 Thanks: 1,318 Thanked 3,653 Times in 1,004 Posts	been there, done that.... It would be nice, but just like every bargain...they don't fit a standard pre WW2 luger..... more work then one can stand to make correct?.... But, nice heads up just the same.. til..lat'r...GT

11-18-2014, 04:58 PM	#16
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	A little off but were there official holsters that came with the counters? Like the test pieces? Eric

11-24-2014, 09:48 AM	#17
Bill_in_VA User Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Southwest Virginia Posts: 373 Thanks: 768 Thanked 554 Times in 198 Posts	A "local" gun store (temporarily local) has what they're advertising as a "Mauser 1908 Cartridge Counter." I assume this is a second generation/re-issue, like the 1970s Parabellums? http://exclusivefirearms.com/product...ge-Counter-9mm __________________ John 8:32 reive (riːv) vb (Military) (intr) dialect Scot and Northern English to go on a plundering raid [variant of reave] ˈreiver n e.g., " Some view the Border Reivers as loveable rogues."