Very rare H/K

MFC · 07-30-2009, 07:04 PM

Hi all,
A friend of mine recently acquired a very rare H/K. I was able to fondle it at the last local gun show that he brought it to. He asked that I put it on the forum to get feedback. He was a friend of Randall Gibson. When Randall Gibson started to get ill, he sold a large portion of his dagger collection to him.

Here is his letter to me with one photo... more photos in a few days. I told him how much you guys enjoy Luger porn.

Mike,
Enclosed is a photo of the Luger Randall Gibson in his book 'The Kriegoff Parabellum" describes what he called "merchandise Lugers". My H/K Luger #7192i fits into Randall's recorded range of 2000i to 10,000i (pg 139). The subject Luger, unlike those described in Randall's book, has neither the DWM logo (blank toggle) nor the back frame "Kriegoff Suhl". The chamber is undated. The caliber is 7.65 and is marked Germany on the right side frame rail. It has C/N proofing and is marked H/K on the right side receiver (see photo) and the same H/K inside the side plate. There is a "K" marked under the forward toggle link.
The Luger was bought at an estate auction in Midland, Tx then shown to Randall. The pistol is unlike Randall had ever seen and his examination was very favorable.
Randall provided more info about such Lugers on pages 142 and 143.
I'm anxious to know what you can find out.
Thank you very much,

drbuster · 07-30-2009, 08:31 PM

You tantalized us Forum members with only one picture! Sure would like to see more views of this "rare" HK.

MFC · 07-30-2009, 09:17 PM

Has anyone seen another like this?
He only sent the one picture along with the letter. He will email me more this weekend.

Edward Tinker · 07-30-2009, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MFC

Has anyone seen another like this?
....

One off's always make me nervous; and I've never seen a H/K marked like this...

But I'm not a Krieg expert either.

Ed

Tomathvl · 07-30-2009, 10:35 PM

Based on a quick reading of Gibson's book, it appears that this could be a DWM reworked by HK.
It's not actually an HK manufactured gun. Need additional info/photos to see if it matches Gibson's observations.
Tom

MFC · 07-31-2009, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomathvl

Based on a quick reading of Gibson's book, it appears that this could be a DWM reworked by HK.

I think "finished" would be a more appropriate term than "reworked" for this one. This example has a blank toggle (no sign of metal removed). The reworked examples still have the original toggle logo, either DWM or Erfurt. All the parts look to be newly manufactured (I'm assuming DWM parts) and put together and finished by HK.

Tomathvl · 07-31-2009, 09:44 AM

Mike,
I was stating from Gibson's, you're allowed to believe what you want. I'm not trying to be a smart ass but any time you have to explain things away without documented proof it falls into the area of "Yeah Right".
Tom

Vlim · 07-31-2009, 01:42 PM

There is always the simple possibility that Krieghoff simply acted as a reseller and marked the pistols it sold this way. Tom is right though, without additional proof, all this is just conjecture, theory, wild guesses, etc...

MFC · 07-31-2009, 03:10 PM

Randall Gibson himself examined this Luger and then wanted to buy it. He didn't say if he thought it was a rework or finished or just marked for resale. He did beleive the H/K stamps were real and said he had never seen another like it. I know at this point all this is just hearsay, but I believe it. My friend that has this Luger was a long time friend of Randall Gibson.
I also realize that without documentation it becomes an educated quess as to how it ended up in this configuration. Gibson states that approximately 8000 pistols were obtained from DWM (2000i to 10,000i). I assumed that this Luger is one of these. He doesn't state if they were completly finished.
I usually get myself into trouble when I start assuming.

MFC · 08-02-2009, 07:03 PM

Her are the rest of the pictures.

drbuster · 08-02-2009, 08:08 PM

Thanks for posting more photos of this interesting luger. I'm not sure they help to answer any questions about where this pistol came from and whether Krieghoff played any role here. On the surface, it is a 1920 commercial luger with "Germany" stamped on the right frame area and an upright C/N commercial proof. It is generally accepted that lugers "reworked" by Krieghoff had lazy C/N proofs but I'm not certain whether any exceptions to this occurred. The toggle is blank which poses many questions. Is there a number stamped under the rear unmarked toggle? Note the H/K marking is also inside the side plate, which adds some credibility to the marking, but as Pete Ebbink stated in an earlier post: Randall Gibson doesn't show or describe this exact marking anywhere in his book. The serial number is right in the middle of the known so-called DWM/Krieghoff "i" series, so if these were sequentially produced and sent to Krieghoff (not sure this happened) then this luger was not early. This will remain an enigma and probably never be answered. As to the late Randall Gibson's alledged acute interest in this luger, this is only conjecture as the poor fellow is not around to ask any longer.

drbuster · 08-02-2009, 08:21 PM

After posting the above, an afterthought occurred. I guess one can definitely say that this luger was NOT manufactured by Krieghoff, and stretching the point, MAYBE one could say that Krieghoff marked it, much like the other DWM/Krieghoffs, but perhaps some chap with the stamper didn't get the word as to the exact and accepted Krieghoff stamping. Fortunately they caught the guy after only one pistol was marked! This still doesn't explain the blank toggle! As wild as this conjecture may be, one cannot prove it either way.

MFC · 08-03-2009, 03:19 AM

I'll ask him if there are numbers along with the "K" he already mentioned under the toggle. He was hoping that there were other collectors with Lugers marked this way. Gibson mentions some "reworks"were marked with an incircled HK, or just HK on the breech. So maybe not one of a kind, just very rare.
I forgot to mention that there is a horizontal C/N stamp on the right side of the center toggle (first photo). It's much smaller than the C/N stamp on the left receiver. He is going to bring it to the next local gunshow (Aug. 15-16). I'll bring my camera and get some nice closeups.

drbuster · 08-03-2009, 10:57 AM

Mike, the C/N proof on the breechclock is just consistent with a 1920 commercial luger, nothing special.

MFC · 08-04-2009, 02:36 AM

Dr.
The proof in the photo is on the right side of the blank toggle. C/N proofs on toggles and breechblocks are usually on the left side, and the same size as the one on the receiver. This one is much smaller. It would be interesting to know if other Kriegoff marked (backframe/sideframe) commercials were stamped the same.

MFC · 08-17-2009, 02:36 AM

More pics...
The #2 appears twice under the forward toggle, along with a K and a cursive capitol D.
H and circle N in the front frame well.
Small C/N proof on right side of toggle.

Lugerdoc · 08-17-2009, 10:53 AM

The blank toggle, inspector marked with a "K" inside, is typical of 1929 BKIW production. Since this part is unnumbered it could be a later replacement and reproofed, as indicated by the same horizontal C/N on the right side. This piece is not consistent with a mid "i" block commerical made in the 1919 to 1921 period. The only reason that I can think of why the inside of the side plate is H/K marked, is if it was also a replacement. Close study of the serial die sets used is indicated. IMHO, if the "i" block luger is not back or side frame marked, it was not marketed by HK. TH

Vlim · 08-17-2009, 12:45 PM

If I elaborate on Tom's observations I would be tempted to describe this one as a pistol that somehow was serviced (repaired) by Krieghoff. Perhaps with a toggle and sideplate replacement. This would incline them to mark the pistol for warranty purposes.

MFC · 08-18-2009, 12:55 AM

Thanks for the replies guys,
Gibson notes that a Kriegoff commercial horizontal C/N proof is smaller than the DWM C/N proof. The smaller proof on the toggle seems to fit into both of your observations.
The toggle is numbered 2, which is the last digit of the S# (usually last two digits), so it may just be a coincidence. Has anybody seen the script capitol D or the stamps in the front frame well before?

07-30-2009, 07:04 PM	#1
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Very rare H/K Hi all, A friend of mine recently acquired a very rare H/K. I was able to fondle it at the last local gun show that he brought it to. He asked that I put it on the forum to get feedback. He was a friend of Randall Gibson. When Randall Gibson started to get ill, he sold a large portion of his dagger collection to him. Here is his letter to me with one photo... more photos in a few days. I told him how much you guys enjoy Luger porn. Mike, Enclosed is a photo of the Luger Randall Gibson in his book 'The Kriegoff Parabellum" describes what he called "merchandise Lugers". My H/K Luger #7192i fits into Randall's recorded range of 2000i to 10,000i (pg 139). The subject Luger, unlike those described in Randall's book, has neither the DWM logo (blank toggle) nor the back frame "Kriegoff Suhl". The chamber is undated. The caliber is 7.65 and is marked Germany on the right side frame rail. It has C/N proofing and is marked H/K on the right side receiver (see photo) and the same H/K inside the side plate. There is a "K" marked under the forward toggle link. The Luger was bought at an estate auction in Midland, Tx then shown to Randall. The pistol is unlike Randall had ever seen and his examination was very favorable. Randall provided more info about such Lugers on pages 142 and 143. I'm anxious to know what you can find out. Thank you very much, Attached Thumbnails __________________ Mike C.

07-30-2009, 09:17 PM	#3
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Has anyone seen another like this? He only sent the one picture along with the letter. He will email me more this weekend. __________________ Mike C.

07-31-2009, 03:10 PM	#9
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Randall Gibson himself examined this Luger and then wanted to buy it. He didn't say if he thought it was a rework or finished or just marked for resale. He did beleive the H/K stamps were real and said he had never seen another like it. I know at this point all this is just hearsay, but I believe it. My friend that has this Luger was a long time friend of Randall Gibson. I also realize that without documentation it becomes an educated quess as to how it ended up in this configuration. Gibson states that approximately 8000 pistols were obtained from DWM (2000i to 10,000i). I assumed that this Luger is one of these. He doesn't state if they were completly finished. I usually get myself into trouble when I start assuming. __________________ Mike C.

08-02-2009, 07:03 PM	#10
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Her are the rest of the pictures. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Mike C.

08-03-2009, 03:19 AM	#13
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	I'll ask him if there are numbers along with the "K" he already mentioned under the toggle. He was hoping that there were other collectors with Lugers marked this way. Gibson mentions some "reworks"were marked with an incircled HK, or just HK on the breech. So maybe not one of a kind, just very rare. I forgot to mention that there is a horizontal C/N stamp on the right side of the center toggle (first photo). It's much smaller than the C/N stamp on the left receiver. He is going to bring it to the next local gunshow (Aug. 15-16). I'll bring my camera and get some nice closeups. __________________ Mike C.

07-30-2009, 08:31 PM	#2
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	You tantalized us Forum members with only one picture! Sure would like to see more views of this "rare" HK.

07-30-2009, 10:35 PM	#5
Tomathvl User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Milan, IN Posts: 363 Thanks: 3 Thanked 48 Times in 19 Posts	Based on a quick reading of Gibson's book, it appears that this could be a DWM reworked by HK. It's not actually an HK manufactured gun. Need additional info/photos to see if it matches Gibson's observations. Tom

07-31-2009, 09:44 AM	#7
Tomathvl User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Milan, IN Posts: 363 Thanks: 3 Thanked 48 Times in 19 Posts	Mike, I was stating from Gibson's, you're allowed to believe what you want. I'm not trying to be a smart ass but any time you have to explain things away without documented proof it falls into the area of "Yeah Right". Tom

07-31-2009, 01:42 PM	#8
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	There is always the simple possibility that Krieghoff simply acted as a reseller and marked the pistols it sold this way. Tom is right though, without additional proof, all this is just conjecture, theory, wild guesses, etc...

08-02-2009, 08:08 PM	#11
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Thanks for posting more photos of this interesting luger. I'm not sure they help to answer any questions about where this pistol came from and whether Krieghoff played any role here. On the surface, it is a 1920 commercial luger with "Germany" stamped on the right frame area and an upright C/N commercial proof. It is generally accepted that lugers "reworked" by Krieghoff had lazy C/N proofs but I'm not certain whether any exceptions to this occurred. The toggle is blank which poses many questions. Is there a number stamped under the rear unmarked toggle? Note the H/K marking is also inside the side plate, which adds some credibility to the marking, but as Pete Ebbink stated in an earlier post: Randall Gibson doesn't show or describe this exact marking anywhere in his book. The serial number is right in the middle of the known so-called DWM/Krieghoff "i" series, so if these were sequentially produced and sent to Krieghoff (not sure this happened) then this luger was not early. This will remain an enigma and probably never be answered. As to the late Randall Gibson's alledged acute interest in this luger, this is only conjecture as the poor fellow is not around to ask any longer.

08-02-2009, 08:21 PM	#12
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	After posting the above, an afterthought occurred. I guess one can definitely say that this luger was NOT manufactured by Krieghoff, and stretching the point, MAYBE one could say that Krieghoff marked it, much like the other DWM/Krieghoffs, but perhaps some chap with the stamper didn't get the word as to the exact and accepted Krieghoff stamping. Fortunately they caught the guy after only one pistol was marked! This still doesn't explain the blank toggle! As wild as this conjecture may be, one cannot prove it either way.

08-03-2009, 10:57 AM	#14
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Mike, the C/N proof on the breechclock is just consistent with a 1920 commercial luger, nothing special.

08-04-2009, 02:36 AM	#15
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Dr. The proof in the photo is on the right side of the blank toggle. C/N proofs on toggles and breechblocks are usually on the left side, and the same size as the one on the receiver. This one is much smaller. It would be interesting to know if other Kriegoff marked (backframe/sideframe) commercials were stamped the same. __________________ Mike C. Last edited by MFC; 08-04-2009 at 03:33 AM.

08-17-2009, 02:36 AM	#16
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	More pics... The #2 appears twice under the forward toggle, along with a K and a cursive capitol D. H and circle N in the front frame well. Small C/N proof on right side of toggle. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Mike C.

08-17-2009, 10:53 AM	#17
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	The blank toggle, inspector marked with a "K" inside, is typical of 1929 BKIW production. Since this part is unnumbered it could be a later replacement and reproofed, as indicated by the same horizontal C/N on the right side. This piece is not consistent with a mid "i" block commerical made in the 1919 to 1921 period. The only reason that I can think of why the inside of the side plate is H/K marked, is if it was also a replacement. Close study of the serial die sets used is indicated. IMHO, if the "i" block luger is not back or side frame marked, it was not marketed by HK. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

08-17-2009, 12:45 PM	#18
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	If I elaborate on Tom's observations I would be tempted to describe this one as a pistol that somehow was serviced (repaired) by Krieghoff. Perhaps with a toggle and sideplate replacement. This would incline them to mark the pistol for warranty purposes.

08-18-2009, 12:55 AM	#19
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Thanks for the replies guys, Gibson notes that a Kriegoff commercial horizontal C/N proof is smaller than the DWM C/N proof. The smaller proof on the toggle seems to fit into both of your observations. The toggle is numbered 2, which is the last digit of the S# (usually last two digits), so it may just be a coincidence. Has anybody seen the script capitol D or the stamps in the front frame well before? __________________ Mike C. Last edited by MFC; 08-18-2009 at 02:40 AM.