Stolen Luger

[Sandi]

Do any of you know where there might be a source for determining if a Luger you have or may want is stolen? I have an acquaintance that has had one stolen (1938 s42). Since they are so collectible I thought there might be a resource already dedicated to preserving the integrity of the weapon. This would allow other collectors a forum for checking their purchases on-the-fly so to speak, since you might not have access to a law enforcement agency to run the numbers for you while you are trying to buy.

If no one knows of such a site, It might be a thought to put one here. That way owner/victims can post their own weapon for others to research. Possibly have a way for the purchasers to contact the victim for recovery.

[John Sabato]

Welcome to the Lugerforum Sandi.

This sounds like a great idea on the surface, but I have feeling that there would be some liability involved that the forum owner might be reluctant to accept, and I would tend to agree with him.

What kind of information do you think would be appropriate for posting other than the gun's description? In the five year history of the forum, I can only remember a few instances where guns were reported stolen. The best suggestion would be a direct interface with law enforcement prior to a purchase.

One problem with Lugers is that for many years, even continuing to today, many folks including law enforcement types don't realize that there is generally a letter suffix to a Luger serial number... but this letter has not been recorded or noticed by the owner, nor does it appear on many types of registration forms where they are required, The result is that there can be quite a few Lugers out there with a four digit serial number... and the date of manufacture and the letter suffix is what distinguishes one from another... So, for example, if a Luger is reported stolen with a serial number of "1234" There could be one out there for every year that Lugers were produced. Even if the letter suffix is recorded as part of the owner's information or on the registration form, or on the stolen gun police report, if the year of manufacture is not recorded, then there is no way to distinguish if a recovered Luger is the correct one, or that one legally possessed is not the stolen Luger. And Lugers were produced during the same years by different manufacturers... another complicating factor.

I also noticed that you didn't include the serial number of the gun you spoke of ????

That is why it is so important that a Luger owner record all the markings and peculiarities about his Luger, and to document it with photographs if at all possible.

Some enterprising entrepreneur might figure out a way to electronically query the NCIC (National Crime Information Center) for a fee, but with the discrepancies described above, there would still be some liability for providing the information to the one paying the fee...

Finally, who's word do you take that the allegedly stolen Luger was legally possessed or owned?

The best way to protect oneself from legal trouble is to require a witnessed bill of sale when a gun changes hands even privately and to record some traceable information about both the seller and the buyer, like photocopies of their drivers licenses. That way if a gun is proven to be stolen, the chain of illegal possession won't start with YOU.

I don't know that there is a workable solution to this problem. Perhaps some of the members could suggest one.

I hope this discussion has been helpful and encourage comments and replies from the membership on this issue.

[jamese]

Sandi,
I can check the numbers for you, however if it comes up stolen you will have to cooperate with local authorities and tell them who has it etcâ?¦ to help them in recovering the gun.

send me a pm with the information

Jim

[John Sabato]

Jim,

What system would you be running the numbers through... it might be worth checking into the feasibility of making a commercial interface available to the public... as long as the user's identity is verified at the time of data submission... whatyathink?

[Sandi]

Mr. Sabato...

You bring up some very good points. The liability issue is a biggie, but I think it can be overcome. The site itself can be protected by a caveat stating that entries are made by the victim/owners and are in no way connected to the site or the site's owners... etc... typical disclaimer information. You could also require the owner/victim to provide a photo if possible and/or purchase documentation. You do not have to allow just anyone to put their information on. You could restrict it to those with researchable documentation of ownership. (just some ideas).

About the serial numbers, correct me if I'm wrong... I am fairly new to the Luger research, but I understood the serial numbers begin at 1 and go through 9,999 or 10,000 (debated)without a suffix and then start back at 1a-9,999a (or 10,000a) etc. Then on top of that the Manufacturers mark would identify it further. Meaning each manufacturer serial numbered the same way so the M/M would technically become part of the identifier of the gun as well as would the year of manufacture.

Therefore, if the gun in question was a 1938 .9mm with a M/M of S42 and S/N 5102 this would identify the gun uniquely.

That is the information for the gun I was talking about. The victim/owner's father took it from a German Officer during the war. The only documentation he has for it is the U.S. Customs paperwork that allowed him to bring it back into the U.S. in 1946. There was no suffix on the serial number on these documents.

The gun had all 5 parts with the same S/N (6 if you include the matching magazine that was in it). The only issue with the weapon was that the Victim/Owner's father had it Nickel plated sometime after it was brought back here. The weapon was stolen in it's brown leather holster.

I work in law enforcement and yes the prospective purchasers can request any local law enforcement to run the guns through NCIC prior to purchase. However, that is not always an option or accessible at the time.

(JIM, thanks for the offer, but we are not looking to buy a gun we are looking to recover one. We know the numbers will come up stolen, since he requested they be put there. That was very decent of you to try to help.

I think that is why I put the suggestion out there. You guys seem so much more like a family than a website. You seem so banded together. It just seems as if more legal gun owners banded together in some fashion it might help. I mean, if it stopped one theft or stolen sale transaction it would be worth it, right?

There are so many of us that are proud of our weapons and our rights to carry them. And there are those that are only out for themselves and what they can profit. It is these people that are slowly taking our rights away from us.

Ok.... I will get off my soapbox, I'm done....
Thanks for letting me vent a little at the end...

Sandi

[John Sabato]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Sandi:
<strong>Ok.... I will get off my soapbox, I'm done....
Thanks for letting me vent a little at the end...

Sandi</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">thanks for the response Sandi... and you are correct, this forum is unlike any other gun forum I have been exposed to, or participated in. It IS much like a family, but would more likely be described as a fraternal organization... Welcome to the group cousin!

Now about the missing Luger... You are correct in your assumption about the uniqueness of the theoretical Luger you described above... but the fact that the suffix letter was not on the papers authorizing its entry into the USA, is problematic if it had one... you would face the same issues I have mentioned above.

Not only that, but consider the innocent owner of a similar 1938 Luger with a different suffix, who has his gun examined by a peace officer who has no familiarity with the serial number history of german guns... in all probability, the gun would be siezed as stolen and cause him a bunch of grief and red tape until the facts could be determined to the satisfaction of the particular police department or judge... not a pleasant experience...

Just how would you suggest that this forum, or any other forum for that matter, provide for restriction of posts to folks as you describe. The only way would be for folks to submit information to a human who would evaluate the situatuion and then either grant or deny the posting... there would be no automated way to do it, and since all labor dedicated to the operation of this and other sites is donated, there would be no way to consistently staff the function... Don't get me wrong. I think the idea is great, but the devil is in the details...

One other scenario to consider... should a person check this list of stolen guns and find that a gun they have interest in is on it, there would be no way to ensure that law enforcement would be notified of the sighting...

Unless these types of details can be economically resolved, staffing could be guaranteed, and operation could be properly financed, I am afraid that this problem will have to sit in the "too tough" box for resolution.

I urge all Luger and other owners of historical guns to record all information about them including good photographs and put the info in a safe place, and when (not if) you are a victim of crime, make sure you report all the details promptly. Also, if you discover a shady firearm, step up to the plate and do the right thing about it.

One last thing Sandi... thanks for addressing someone you really don't know yet with respect, and I don't know how old you are, but "Mr. Sabato" is my 84 year old WW2 veteran father... my name is John.

[Frank]

Hi Sandi, just a point of clarification. When you discuss Mauser Military Lugers, the numbering system didn't begin with serial number 1 at the beginning of each year.

For instance in 1936, the first serial number was about 5000f and ended with about 4500p. The 1937 Lugers, then followed with about 4500p, with some overlap with the 1936 production, and continued to about 400b. Then the 1938 production began with somewhere around 1, again overlap with the 1937 production. And so on . . .

From this you can easily see the importance of both the chamber date and the suffix of the serial number, along with the numerical portion. These both have to be in the correct sequence.

Many so called bring back documents, showing proof of ownership, don't have either the chamber date or the serial number suffix. Attempting to claim ownership from these documents is fruitless, in my opinion!

[Sandi]

John,

I see your point. And you are welcome. I'm not too old, but old enough not to want to tell

Maybe someone will come up with an idea that is simple enough we will all be amazed!!

And tell your father THANK YOU for me for all he has done in his lifetime to protect mine.

You all have my respect. And thanks again for the welcome.

Sandi

[Sandi]

Frank,

It is unfortunate isn't it. Thanks for the lesson. As I said before, I am relatively new at the research on the Luger and I appreciate any help given. I feel I have a fairly good grasp on it so far (hope no one differs).

I do find it all extremely interesting though. I think it would be intense but pleasing to research each Luger as I came across it to determine its actual history. There are so many Logos and Manufacturer's Marks it makes it like putting together a puzzle.

I would be curious to know how long some of the members have been researching this. This site is so informative.

Sandi

[John Sabato]

In the much earlier days of this forum, we had such a poll... you will find it deep in the pages of Site Help and Feedback Forum.

Maybe it is time we did this again. I am sure that at the time there were less than 150 members...

I think it deserves a new thread.

check this same forum...

[jamese]

John and Sandi,

Sandi Iâ??m sorry I mis-understood your post. I thought you wanted to check on a gun to see if it was possibly stolen.

John, In response to your question:

I would be running the gun through the NCIC system and as you stated just because the gun is listed as stolen in the system, it does not mean that the gun your looking at is the same one.
It requires a lot of research and investigation and frankly most law enforcement officers donâ??t have the base knowledge about luger serial numbers to make a proper determination.

While I believe that public access to query the NCIC system would recover some stolen property; most public queries would send law enforcement on wild goose chases. Not to mention a lot of innocent people would have their property seized for an undetermined amount of time until an investigation could determine the true status of the item.

I can also think of numerous other problems that unscrupulous people would do if they had access to that type of information that I donâ??t want to go into.

While Iâ??m a basic believer that information is meant to be shared or its nothing more than data. Sharing certain data can cause more problems than good can come from it.

Jim

[Sandi]

Jim,

I agree with you... That is probably why the FBI who governs NCIC is very strict as to who can have access and why.

I guess the only way to prove your Luger did not have a suffix would be if you had photo documentation of it. Otherwise, you could never trust any written documentation. You would never be positive that the writer just didn't leave the suffix off or did not know it existed.

I have one more question though. If you had a Luger with the 5 parts and the magazine with matching numbers, would the suffix be on all 6 parts as well?

The person I was inquiring for originally, says he remembers the number 5102 being on all parts. I asked him about a suffix and he does not ever remember seing one. On any part.

Sandi

[Frank]

Hi again Sandi!! Military Mausers only have the suffix on the front of the frame, if there is one!! One place, ONLY.

Both the primary and spare magazines also contain the suffix. The only problem, that I can see, is proving the magazine is matched to the pistol. Again photographic evidence would be the best proof.

[Dwight Gruber]

Sandi,

According to Still there were no 1938 S/42 in the (ns)=no suffix serial# block, so your friend's memory, and the record of the gun, are both incomplete on the subject.

--Dwight

[Sandi]

Thanks Frank and Dwight...

But OK... I'm still a "Babe in the Woods". My initial interest in weapons has been instilled by my husband (God Bless Him)and I am surely getting hooked.

But I am still a "Babe in the Woods" nontheless...

What or who is "Still"?

And were there Commercially sold 1938 Lugers of this type? (as opposed to Military?) I read on this site that the Commercial and Military Lugers were s/n differently, but I didn't see anywhere that described the Commercial version's theory on serial numbers. I may have missed that somewhere.

And guys... thanks alot for all the patience. It really means a lot to know there is somewhere I can go to ask these questions without being labled..... You guys are great!

Sandi

[Frank]

Sandi, Jan C. Still has written several books on Lugers, one of which is "Third Reich Lugers", which is what Dwight is quoting.

There are other Luger "Nuts" that claim to have 1938 data down to 6000 with a no suffix. These have not been documented and could be erroneous.

Still's book is only approximate, but it seems that a no suffix 1938 is probably too low a serial number to be legit.

Still, pardon the pun, a photo is worth a thousand words.

While a noble cause, you might be chasing a ghost!

Good Luck

[Sandi]

Thanks Frank....

You gentlemen have a great evening.

Sandi

[Dwight Gruber]

Sandi,

Mauser did manufacture some Commercial chamber dated Lugers between 1936-1940, but they were stamped with the Mauser banner on the toggle rather than the S/42, 42, or byf military codes. They are quite uncommon, and found with v, w, and x letter suffixes.

--Dwight

[policeluger]

Jan can be reached at www.gunboards.com/luger, try that site also!.

[Thor]

Sandi, I really like that AVATAR (the angel)