Poor Condition Alphabet Commercial

airforcemajor · 01-10-2014, 03:54 PM

I have parts of a 7.65 Luger that was given to me by the executor of an estate in about 1968/69, the gun may have been in a house fire. There is quite a bit of surface distress, I am not sure if it is due to the metal blistering from heat or if it is due to heavy rust. When given to me it was covered in a dark varnish-like material; possibly old oil. I have rubbed it lightly with 0000 steel wool and mineral spirits but still have a lot of old material to remove.

I have looked for markings everywhere I found markings on the Lugers pictured on this forum; below is what I found.
The toggle is marked “DWM” and has what looks like a "Crown N" on the left side of the 1st toggle. The bolt is marked "95" on the left side and there is what looks like "95" stamped on rear of 2nd toggle. A "3" is stamped underneath 2nd toggle. There may be a “95” stamped on the rear of the 2nd toggle or it may be my imagination.

The serial number is 5287i; “GERMANY” is stamped underneath the frame serial number. There is an "N" in a circle and a "J" in locking bolt well (for want of a better term).

There is an "N" on the left side of barrel extension but there is no evidence of a crown. I can’t find any other markings on the receiver. There is a very small “dot” above the right hand upright of the “N” but I am fairly certain that is a surface defect and not the remnant of a crown.

The safety is marked "GESICHERT" and the extractor is marked "GELADEN" on left side. There is no grip safety. There is a shoulder stock lug.

The barrel is marked with an upright "Crown N" on the bottom side forward of serial number. I can find no other markings on the barrel.

Assuming this is not some ultra-rare, previously unknown, example I may try my hand at refinishing it. I highly doubt that it is even worth the cost of the parts to make it complete but what the heck, the process will be fun.

From reading this forum I believe I have an Alphabet Commercial model made in the early 20’s; is this a good assumption?

If pictures don’t show up with this post I will continue to work on posting them.

alanint · 01-10-2014, 04:12 PM

You indeed have an Alphabet Commercial made sometime in the early 1920s. The nitch experts will tell you what year it was made, based on the serial number.

It seems to be cleaning up rather nicely, but I would have an expert try to determine if it was in a fire or simply poorly stored. I would personally not be comfortable firing a Luger that had heat damage to the metal, while I would have no problem with a pistol that had simply rusted.

Edward Tinker · 01-10-2014, 04:19 PM

agree with Alan above, if the fire was hot and most are, then it could cause issues with the upper especially and toggle

Ed

DavidJayUden · 01-10-2014, 04:38 PM

A complete spring kit is definitely in order too.
Looks like a candidate for bead blasting and mat bluing.
I'm not certain how someone can tell if the parts have been hot, but I'm not seeing anything obvious.
Regarding shooting it, well, I've done stupider things...
Definitely shoot it single shot for a while to test the waters.
dju

airforcemajor · 01-10-2014, 05:02 PM

I have to admit I would like to shoot it. The idea of a very hot fire does concern me; I was thinking of rigging up some sort of remote fixture for the first few shots, at least.

In looking at examples here and elsewhere I see that many examples have proof marks on the right side of the receiver and mine does not. Would mine have had these at some point?

ithacaartist · 01-10-2014, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by airforcemajor

I have to admit I would like to shoot it. The idea of a very hot fire does concern me; I was thinking of rigging up some sort of remote fixture for the first few shots, at least.

In looking at examples here and elsewhere I see that many examples have proof marks on the right side of the receiver and mine does not. Would mine have had these at some point?

Proofs on the right front of the receiver were applied to military guns. Commercials, of course, would not generally have them. I believe,however, that the occasional example is encountered that wound up in military service--but then again, I'm doubting that a .30 Luger would wind up in this situation because 9mm was probably preferred.

lugersrkewl · 01-10-2014, 07:43 PM

I dont know what year it was made I dont think its a commercial or it was an imperial that was sold commercially because of the proofs? Or a bkiw transition piece?

MFC · 01-11-2014, 01:31 AM

It's a DWM Alphabet Commercial made in 1921 according to Still's Weimar Lugers.

airforcemajor · 01-11-2014, 12:20 PM

Admittedly I am not knowledgeable regarding Lugers but I noticed several things that don't seem correct.

The first is the "dish" on the front right side of the receiver appears to be narrower than the corresponding dish on the left side. Would this indicate someone obliterated the proofs for some reason?

In addition, when viewed head on the front of the receiver is not the same thickness on the top as on the sides; is this normal or an indication that the top of the receiver was ground on the top?

The proof on the left side of the receiver does not look like any I have seen on this site. It appears to be just an "N" with no crown. I noticed this picture did not load so I will try again.

What is a bkiw transitional piece?

Thanks to all for your replies and information.

Don M · 01-12-2014, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by airforcemajor

In addition, when viewed head on the front of the receiver is not the same thickness on the top as on the sides; is this normal or an indication that the top of the receiver was ground on the top?

This is normal.

lugersrkewl · 01-11-2014, 02:38 PM

It's a DWM Alphabet Commercial made in 1921 according to Still's Weimar Lugers.
Who you gonna believe me or Jan c Still?

bkiw was the what dwm was called from late 29 to 33 somewhere in there before it was absorbed by mauser...I hope I got that right no more bath salts for me for breakfast

MFC · 01-11-2014, 10:43 PM

The receiver is flatter on top than the sides.
I believe the 'N' stamp is a partial Crown/N. I see remnants of the crown still there.

DWM's name changed to BKIW in late 1918 or 1919 after WWI but continued to use the DWM logo. Mauser did not absorb DWM, it only took over Luger production in 1930.

airforcemajor · 01-11-2014, 11:55 PM

There is so much I don't know about Lugers.

Given all my other expensive interests I probably won't purchase the reference books necessary to become educated on the subject. Not to mention I also probably won't be buying any nice/quality Lugers in the near future!

Again, thanks for all the information.

ithacaartist · 01-12-2014, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by airforcemajor

... Given all my other expensive interests I probably won't purchase the reference books necessary to become educated on the subject. Not to mention I also probably won't be buying any nice/quality Lugers in the near future!...

Well, then, I recommend a cheapie.. This one could probably fire safely with a little work. This severely pitted example would still be a hit at the range, I'll bet--even if you used a can of Krylon to give it a finish.

Absorbing the info on the forum can be an economical alternative to the gold standard of acquiring good reference material, albeit not as organized or searchable. It would be like trickle charging a battery vs. buying a new one...

01-10-2014, 03:54 PM	#1
airforcemajor User Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Poor Condition Alphabet Commercial I have parts of a 7.65 Luger that was given to me by the executor of an estate in about 1968/69, the gun may have been in a house fire. There is quite a bit of surface distress, I am not sure if it is due to the metal blistering from heat or if it is due to heavy rust. When given to me it was covered in a dark varnish-like material; possibly old oil. I have rubbed it lightly with 0000 steel wool and mineral spirits but still have a lot of old material to remove. I have looked for markings everywhere I found markings on the Lugers pictured on this forum; below is what I found. The toggle is marked “DWM” and has what looks like a "Crown N" on the left side of the 1st toggle. The bolt is marked "95" on the left side and there is what looks like "95" stamped on rear of 2nd toggle. A "3" is stamped underneath 2nd toggle. There may be a “95” stamped on the rear of the 2nd toggle or it may be my imagination. The serial number is 5287i; “GERMANY” is stamped underneath the frame serial number. There is an "N" in a circle and a "J" in locking bolt well (for want of a better term). There is an "N" on the left side of barrel extension but there is no evidence of a crown. I can’t find any other markings on the receiver. There is a very small “dot” above the right hand upright of the “N” but I am fairly certain that is a surface defect and not the remnant of a crown. The safety is marked "GESICHERT" and the extractor is marked "GELADEN" on left side. There is no grip safety. There is a shoulder stock lug. The barrel is marked with an upright "Crown N" on the bottom side forward of serial number. I can find no other markings on the barrel. Assuming this is not some ultra-rare, previously unknown, example I may try my hand at refinishing it. I highly doubt that it is even worth the cost of the parts to make it complete but what the heck, the process will be fun. From reading this forum I believe I have an Alphabet Commercial model made in the early 20’s; is this a good assumption? If pictures don’t show up with this post I will continue to work on posting them. Attached Thumbnails

01-10-2014, 04:19 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,933 Thanks: 2,032 Thanked 4,530 Times in 2,092 Posts	agree with Alan above, if the fire was hot and most are, then it could cause issues with the upper especially and toggle Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

01-11-2014, 01:31 AM	#8
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	It's a DWM Alphabet Commercial made in 1921 according to Still's Weimar Lugers. __________________ Mike C.

01-11-2014, 12:20 PM	#9
airforcemajor User Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Admittedly I am not knowledgeable regarding Lugers but I noticed several things that don't seem correct. The first is the "dish" on the front right side of the receiver appears to be narrower than the corresponding dish on the left side. Would this indicate someone obliterated the proofs for some reason? In addition, when viewed head on the front of the receiver is not the same thickness on the top as on the sides; is this normal or an indication that the top of the receiver was ground on the top? The proof on the left side of the receiver does not look like any I have seen on this site. It appears to be just an "N" with no crown. I noticed this picture did not load so I will try again. What is a bkiw transitional piece? Thanks to all for your replies and information. Attached Thumbnails

01-11-2014, 10:43 PM	#12
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	The receiver is flatter on top than the sides. I believe the 'N' stamp is a partial Crown/N. I see remnants of the crown still there. DWM's name changed to BKIW in late 1918 or 1919 after WWI but continued to use the DWM logo. Mauser did not absorb DWM, it only took over Luger production in 1930. __________________ Mike C.

01-10-2014, 04:12 PM	#2
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	You indeed have an Alphabet Commercial made sometime in the early 1920s. The nitch experts will tell you what year it was made, based on the serial number. It seems to be cleaning up rather nicely, but I would have an expert try to determine if it was in a fire or simply poorly stored. I would personally not be comfortable firing a Luger that had heat damage to the metal, while I would have no problem with a pistol that had simply rusted.

01-10-2014, 04:38 PM	#4
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	A complete spring kit is definitely in order too. Looks like a candidate for bead blasting and mat bluing. I'm not certain how someone can tell if the parts have been hot, but I'm not seeing anything obvious. Regarding shooting it, well, I've done stupider things... Definitely shoot it single shot for a while to test the waters. dju

01-10-2014, 05:02 PM	#5
airforcemajor User Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have to admit I would like to shoot it. The idea of a very hot fire does concern me; I was thinking of rigging up some sort of remote fixture for the first few shots, at least. In looking at examples here and elsewhere I see that many examples have proof marks on the right side of the receiver and mine does not. Would mine have had these at some point?

01-10-2014, 07:43 PM	#7
lugersrkewl Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Ussr Posts: 425 Thanks: 198 Thanked 75 Times in 58 Posts	I dont know what year it was made I dont think its a commercial or it was an imperial that was sold commercially because of the proofs? Or a bkiw transition piece?

01-11-2014, 02:38 PM	#11
lugersrkewl Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Ussr Posts: 425 Thanks: 198 Thanked 75 Times in 58 Posts	It's a DWM Alphabet Commercial made in 1921 according to Still's Weimar Lugers. Who you gonna believe me or Jan c Still? bkiw was the what dwm was called from late 29 to 33 somewhere in there before it was absorbed by mauser...I hope I got that right no more bath salts for me for breakfast

01-11-2014, 11:55 PM	#13
airforcemajor User Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	There is so much I don't know about Lugers. Given all my other expensive interests I probably won't purchase the reference books necessary to become educated on the subject. Not to mention I also probably won't be buying any nice/quality Lugers in the near future! Again, thanks for all the information.