Help needed dating luger

BCMike · 10-06-2010, 04:04 AM

This is my first post here. I'm out of my element with lugers and hope this is the correct place for this question. I'm trying to ballpark a year of manufacture on this poor sorry looking gal for a friend. Story is it spent a long time under water and it looks like it. Very beat up and obviously will never fire, especially with no trigger assembly but it would be nice to get the era correct as it is a family keepsake. No visable marks of any kind including serial number I guess due to corrosion on the pistol except the DWM script on the toggle assembly so no letter to help date the number on the mag. No grip safety.

Serial number on mag is 6582. The mag looks like it spent a long time with the pistol as they both have equal parts of the c**p beaten out of them.

If I could get an approximate year and place of origin he would be happy.

Thanks for any help.
Mike

alanint · 10-06-2010, 06:54 AM

Is the hole above the trigger guard drilled or corroded through?

BCMike · 10-06-2010, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

Is the hole above the trigger guard drilled or corroded through?

Drilled. Looks like factory - trigger assembly connecting point?

whcoyote · 10-11-2010, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

Is the hole above the trigger guard drilled or corroded through?

That's where the end of the trigger pin goes, if it had a trigger.

The DWM toggle and no date places it about 1908-09, made at Deutches Waffen and Munitionsfabrik, if it's miliotary - possibly later if it's a Commercial Luger. After 1909, military receivers were dated.
The numbers on the underside of the receiver lug are an indicator of the pistol's last two serial number digits. The absence of numbers on the frame puzzle me. The barrel is too corroded to have any numbers left.
So, probably a Commercial 1908 or a 1st Model Military.
Bob

BCMike · 10-11-2010, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whcoyote

That's where the end of the trigger pin goes, if it had a trigger.

The DWM toggle and no date places it about 1908-09, made at Deutches Waffen and Munitionsfabrik. After that the receivers were dated.
Bob

Thanks Bob, have you heard of any lugers that did not have a serial # on the frame under the barrel?

whcoyote · 10-11-2010, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BCMike

Thanks Bob, have you heard of any lugers that did not have a serial # on the frame under the barrel?

Mike:
I have never seen a Luger without a S/N on the nose of the frame. That's not to say that it never happened - just that I'm not aware of it. I collect only Imperial Military Lugers (1904-1918) so there may be some in other genres (?) that are not marked on the nose. I think this Luger was marked in the Commercial fashion: S/N on nose of frame and under barrel; last two digits of S/N under the takedown lever, under the lip of the side plate, on the left side of trigger, on rear of rear toggle link, sometimes on top edge of safety lever tab, bottom of receiver lug, underside of forward part of front toggle link (just behind the breech block). I have also seen Lugers that were commercially marked with the S/N on the safety bar and the sear bar although this is not a prescribed location.
Check all these parts and see if there are any remnants of the S/N anywhere.
Bob

BCMike · 10-12-2010, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whcoyote

Mike:
I have never seen a Luger without a S/N on the nose of the frame. That's not to say that it never happened - just that I'm not aware of it. I collect only Imperial Military Lugers (1904-1918) so there may be some in other genres (?) that are not marked on the nose. I think this Luger was marked in the Commercial fashion: S/N on nose of frame and under barrel; last two digits of S/N under the takedown lever, under the lip of the side plate, on the left side of trigger, on rear of rear toggle link, sometimes on top edge of safety lever tab, bottom of receiver lug, underside of forward part of front toggle link (just behind the breech block). I have also seen Lugers that were commercially marked with the S/N on the safety bar and the sear bar although this is not a prescribed location.
Check all these parts and see if there are any remnants of the S/N anywhere.
Bob

Thanks Bob. Please look at my post #16 showing the front of frame with no serial #. Even if worn a lot I'm sure it would be there at least faintly. Also there is a #1 underside of slide and I assume the last 2 dogits of a serial #--57 in a couple of places.

alanint · 10-11-2010, 04:50 PM

[QUOTE=whcoyote;183964]That's where the end of the trigger pin goes, if it had a trigger.

I'm aware of that. The following threads clarified that I was wondering if the hole had been enlarged by drilling or corrosion.

sheepherder · 10-11-2010, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whcoyote

The absence of numbers on the frame puzzle me.

I have a Russian capture P38 which has had the serial # at the base of the barrel ground away, very skilfully, very smoothly, and very flat. A new number was stamped very lightly in that space. The same number/font is also stamped very lightly on the left side of the slide, and more heavily and with different font on the right side of the frame.

Is it possible that their Lugers were marked similarly??? And a faint # corroded away???

Edward Tinker · 10-06-2010, 07:53 AM

Well, hard to say, if no date on the receiver then it is likely post 1921 but before 1930

Place of origin is DWM factory Germany, they weren't made anywhere else (a few exceptions, but slim that it is one of those)

Curious, found in water, a family mistake or found where?

Ed

BCMike · 10-06-2010, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

Well, hard to say, if no date on the receiver then it is likely post 1921 but before 1930

Place of origin is DWM factory Germany, they weren't made anywhere else (a few exceptions, but slim that it is one of those)

Curious, found in water, a family mistake or found where?

Ed

Even with all the corrosion I'm sure there was never a date stamp on the receiver. Someone told me it might be a very early year before dates were stamped but I have no luger knowledge so don't know fact from fiction at this point. I'm getting the family history soon. Hard to tell fact from fantasy with family stories.

Is the aluminium base mag from later?

BCMike · 10-06-2010, 01:50 PM

This is a reply from another forum. What do you think?

"Seems what you have there is a military P08 configuration, pre-1914 because it doesnt have the stock lug attachment. Date on chamber would be 1910 to 1913 (a rarity would be a 1914 date as few of these were produced without the stock lug during the transition period) An undated chamber, combined with left side receiver (bbl extension) proofs would indicate a 1908 type pistol which was the first model Luger adopted by the German Army.

Mag is a 1940-42 production, extruded body with either FXO markings (1941-42) or 122 markings for a 1940."

alanint · 10-06-2010, 03:02 PM

The information you received from the other forum is correct. I was going to mention the same lack of a stock lug as well as no chamber date. It is one of the earliest issued guns.

Is the toggle being held open by corrosion or is there a "hold open" device keeping it raised as in the photo? There is no clear indication from your right hand side photo that a hold open device was added, which did not come on these early factory guns. The photo is not sharp so the added hold open pin may de there, I just can't see it.

The drilled hole was done by someone other than the factory. There should be no hole in that area at all. Maybe an attempt to "add" a trigger by someone who did not understand how the mechanism works or for display purposes?

BCMike · 10-06-2010, 04:30 PM

Here's where my ignorance shows. By stock lug do you mean a lug as a means of attaching a longer stock at the back?

Although somewhat stiff, the pistol action functions and the toggle will stay up until pulled back and released.

So I understand the pistol is an early one but is the aluminum base magazine later production?

A few more pics:

mrerick · 10-06-2010, 05:27 PM

Yes - the Aluminum based extruded blued steel magazine (by Haenel) is from a later era. It's from the late 1930s through 1942 period.

There is normally a hole in the frame for mounting the trigger. This one may have been drilled out as it appears slightly larger than normal.

Your take down lever has been snapped off.

The stock lug would be at the bottom of the rear frame strap near the magazine well.

Yes - the stock lug is used for attaching a carbine stock. See this site for pictures.

alanint · 10-06-2010, 05:50 PM

The trigger mounting hole does look larger than normal

BCMike · 10-08-2010, 11:07 PM

Thanks all for the great info. I see some lugers with grip safetys and this one doesn't have one. Is that a further indication that this pistol is an early model? Were grip safetys instituted on a certain date or year?

Mike

Ron Wood · 10-08-2010, 11:36 PM

Actually, a grip safety is generally an indication of an early Luger. The first production Lugers in 1900 had a grip safety and that feature continued through the Model 1906. The grip safety was abandoned with the first German army contract in 1908 never to return except in some commercial and foreign contract guns.

BCMike · 10-09-2010, 01:15 AM

Thanks Ron,
You know I never was a luger guy even when we played war outside with two bring backs that my friend's dad got in WW2. My main interest is the early 1911 but I'm starting to like the luger enough to the point of maybe getting one. I keep feeling sorry for this poor old thing...

sheepherder · 10-09-2010, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BCMike

...even when we played war outside with two bring backs that my friend's dad got in WW2....

...Huh???...

Quote:

I keep feeling sorry for this poor old thing...

I think it would make a most excellent desk trophy, dude!!!

10-06-2010, 05:27 PM	#15
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Yes - the Aluminum based extruded blued steel magazine (by Haenel) is from a later era. It's from the late 1930s through 1942 period. There is normally a hole in the frame for mounting the trigger. This one may have been drilled out as it appears slightly larger than normal. Your take down lever has been snapped off. The stock lug would be at the bottom of the rear frame strap near the magazine well. Yes - the stock lug is used for attaching a carbine stock. See this site for pictures. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

10-08-2010, 11:36 PM	#18
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Actually, a grip safety is generally an indication of an early Luger. The first production Lugers in 1900 had a grip safety and that feature continued through the Model 1906. The grip safety was abandoned with the first German army contract in 1908 never to return except in some commercial and foreign contract guns. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-06-2010, 04:04 AM	#1
BCMike User Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Canada - A little patch of paradise where the Pacific meets the Coastal Mountains Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Help needed dating luger This is my first post here. I'm out of my element with lugers and hope this is the correct place for this question. I'm trying to ballpark a year of manufacture on this poor sorry looking gal for a friend. Story is it spent a long time under water and it looks like it. Very beat up and obviously will never fire, especially with no trigger assembly but it would be nice to get the era correct as it is a family keepsake. No visable marks of any kind including serial number I guess due to corrosion on the pistol except the DWM script on the toggle assembly so no letter to help date the number on the mag. No grip safety. Serial number on mag is 6582. The mag looks like it spent a long time with the pistol as they both have equal parts of the c**p beaten out of them. If I could get an approximate year and place of origin he would be happy. Thanks for any help. Mike

10-06-2010, 06:54 AM	#2
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Is the hole above the trigger guard drilled or corroded through?

10-11-2010, 04:50 PM	#8
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	[QUOTE=whcoyote;183964]That's where the end of the trigger pin goes, if it had a trigger. I'm aware of that. The following threads clarified that I was wondering if the hole had been enlarged by drilling or corrosion.

10-06-2010, 07:53 AM	#10
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,933 Thanks: 2,032 Thanked 4,530 Times in 2,092 Posts	Well, hard to say, if no date on the receiver then it is likely post 1921 but before 1930 Place of origin is DWM factory Germany, they weren't made anywhere else (a few exceptions, but slim that it is one of those) Curious, found in water, a family mistake or found where? Ed

10-06-2010, 01:50 PM	#12
BCMike User Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Canada - A little patch of paradise where the Pacific meets the Coastal Mountains Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	This is a reply from another forum. What do you think? "Seems what you have there is a military P08 configuration, pre-1914 because it doesnt have the stock lug attachment. Date on chamber would be 1910 to 1913 (a rarity would be a 1914 date as few of these were produced without the stock lug during the transition period) An undated chamber, combined with left side receiver (bbl extension) proofs would indicate a 1908 type pistol which was the first model Luger adopted by the German Army. Mag is a 1940-42 production, extruded body with either FXO markings (1941-42) or 122 markings for a 1940."

10-06-2010, 03:02 PM	#13
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	The information you received from the other forum is correct. I was going to mention the same lack of a stock lug as well as no chamber date. It is one of the earliest issued guns. Is the toggle being held open by corrosion or is there a "hold open" device keeping it raised as in the photo? There is no clear indication from your right hand side photo that a hold open device was added, which did not come on these early factory guns. The photo is not sharp so the added hold open pin may de there, I just can't see it. The drilled hole was done by someone other than the factory. There should be no hole in that area at all. Maybe an attempt to "add" a trigger by someone who did not understand how the mechanism works or for display purposes?

10-06-2010, 04:30 PM	#14
BCMike User Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Canada - A little patch of paradise where the Pacific meets the Coastal Mountains Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here's where my ignorance shows. By stock lug do you mean a lug as a means of attaching a longer stock at the back? Although somewhat stiff, the pistol action functions and the toggle will stay up until pulled back and released. So I understand the pistol is an early one but is the aluminum base magazine later production? A few more pics:

10-06-2010, 05:50 PM	#16
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	The trigger mounting hole does look larger than normal

10-08-2010, 11:07 PM	#17
BCMike User Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Canada - A little patch of paradise where the Pacific meets the Coastal Mountains Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks all for the great info. I see some lugers with grip safetys and this one doesn't have one. Is that a further indication that this pistol is an early model? Were grip safetys instituted on a certain date or year? Mike

10-09-2010, 01:15 AM	#19
BCMike User Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Vancouver, B.C. Canada - A little patch of paradise where the Pacific meets the Coastal Mountains Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Ron, You know I never was a luger guy even when we played war outside with two bring backs that my friend's dad got in WW2. My main interest is the early 1911 but I'm starting to like the luger enough to the point of maybe getting one. I keep feeling sorry for this poor old thing...