1912 Refinish Or Not...???

Pete Ebbink · 11-17-2007, 01:33 PM

What do you all think...original finish or not...?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=84878671

Mauser720 · 11-17-2007, 02:44 PM

Pete -

I am guessing that it is not the original finish for two reasons:

(1) He makes this statement in his listing: "It looks like bottom part of the barrel at the chamber and left side at the chamber were spot touch up with rust blue after some pitting was removed." I don't know if you can do a "spot touch up" with anything other than typical cold blue; however, I could be wrong.

(2) And I would have expected to see some indication of finish wear beneath the safety lever. Maybe it is there, but I can't see it.

So I am going to guess that it has been refinished in at least in some places with typical cold blue.

Mauser720-Ron

Pete Ebbink · 11-17-2007, 03:29 PM

Hi Ron,

The side view photos and inside frame well photos look really promising. Lots of "in the white" surfaces down in the wells.

There are no "halos" on the barrel serial number. Depth of the barrel SN looks pretty shallow as well

Also...no "halos" on the 2-digit numbers on the extractor and the toggle link.

The partially cropped "9" on the chamber date had me worried as well.

I think parts of this gun may have had touch ups...other parts may still have their original finish.

Also...no impact or strike marks along the back of the frame where you usually see contact with the toggle train in its rear-most travel during firing :

RBorecky · 11-17-2007, 04:23 PM

The barrel was clearly redone but the rest is questionable and does look good. I wonder if it was pulled to redo the barrel wear from the holster or pitting. I know a guy who lathed one ever so slighlty to remove marks. That may have been doen to this barrrel. Rick B

tenbears · 11-17-2007, 07:24 PM

The magazine is a nice numbered and proofed Effurt. With one proof it should be post 1912 to 1918.

LugerVern · 11-17-2007, 08:18 PM

Nice gun, but I would have to say a redo for sure.
It looks like a wire wheel was used except around the proof marks and edges. They were most likely done by hand as they appear smoother than the rest of the finish. The forward toggle link pivot joints have no ware, and neither does the rear of the frame.
There are other inconsistencies also, minor by themselves but taken together with the redone barrel, I vote redo on the entire finish.

Vern

Ron Smith · 11-17-2007, 10:40 PM

I'm not so sure. It looks original to me. The hold open pin is still in the white, I think. Hard to be sure from his photos. The straw shows aging which would be very difficult to reproduce. I think it's original except for the barrel. My thought would be that someone tried to remove an import mark and botched it up. Removing part of the barrel SN in the process.

Ron

Dwight Gruber · 11-18-2007, 05:40 AM

I agree with Ron about the added holdopen pin being in the white, as is the center toggle axle retaining pin. I am much less sanguine about the apparent lack of fire blue on the breechblock pin and the sear spring.

I think that what we have here is a sterling demonstration that photo analysis cannot be the final arbiter of condition of a Luger.

--Dwight

RBorecky · 11-18-2007, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ron Smith
I'm not so sure. It looks original to me. The hold open pin is still in the white, I think. Hard to be sure from his photos. The straw shows aging which would be very difficult to reproduce. I think it's original except for the barrel. My thought would be that someone tried to remove an import mark and botched it up. Removing part of the barrel SN in the process.

Ron

I disagree as the barrel is not original and the photos clearly show this. I have yet to see two separate stampings be light together. Those photos are perfect in this area. For bluing,, no I agree it would be hard to tell. Rick B

Ron Smith · 11-18-2007, 11:08 AM

"I disagree as the barrel is not original and the photos clearly show this."

Rick,

What indicates that the barrel is not original?

Ron

RBorecky · 11-18-2007, 12:34 PM

The finish is not original on the barrel. Sorry if I made it sound like i meant the actual barrel. Rick B

Pete Ebbink · 11-18-2007, 01:56 PM

Quote:

I think that what we have here is a sterling demonstration that photo analysis cannot be the final arbiter of condition of a Luger.

Dwight...

No agrument here...but it does give newcomers whom are being easily taken for $ 2000-4000 by the Luger selling "sharks" in the USA and elsewhere some things and areas to keep in mind when venturing out for that first collector purchase...

Some close-ups of this gun on G-B :

Ron Smith · 11-18-2007, 02:51 PM

Pete,

Thanks for the close-ups. It does appear that it has been re-finished at some point. No "cratering" visible on the periphery of the numbers. Whoever did it, did a nice job of matching the hue of the original rust blue of the era.

Ron

Pete Ebbink · 11-18-2007, 03:00 PM

Here is a 1914 example off the Simpsons LTD site...

Pete Ebbink · 11-18-2007, 03:08 PM

Ron,

You may be right...I do not think this one offered on G-B was 100% refinished...just key areas that were "blended"...for a touch-up.

Many photos of the grip strap and area under the trigger plate show old finish and gunk and debris...

Same with the frame wells...does not seem like the gun was chemically cleaned in a bath.

Most of the strawed parts look old and aged...so maybe they were un-touched as well...

George Anderson · 11-18-2007, 07:46 PM

In my opinion there is no question that the gun has been refinished. The added hold-open's situation would indicate that not the whole gun but certainly the barrel and a few other parts.

A.Mifsin · 01-04-2008, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pete Ebbink
Hi Ron,

The side view photos and inside frame well photos look really promising. Lots of "in the white" surfaces down in the wells.

There are no "halos" on the barrel serial number. Depth of the barrel SN looks pretty shallow as well

Also...no "halos" on the 2-digit numbers on the extractor and the toggle link.

The partially cropped "9" on the chamber date had me worried as well.

I think parts of this gun may have had touch ups...other parts may still have their original finish.

Also...no impact or strike marks along the back of the frame where you usually see contact with the toggle train in its rear-most travel during firing :

When you say ""Also...no "halos" on the 2-digit numbers on the extractor and the toggle link."" what is Halos?
Alf

Edward Tinker · 01-04-2008, 04:35 PM

somebody write up a good explanation of what a halo is and when you see one (I know that rust blue aren't halo'd??) and I'll add it to the FAQ

LugerVern · 01-04-2008, 10:04 PM

OK: I am sure if I get this wrong someone will jump on me. Please feel free to correct me.

Halo
To encircle with or as if with a halo.

Halos are most often associated with the stamping of harden metal such as barrels, extractors, breach blocks and some pins.

As the stamp makes its indent the metal under the stamp must go somewhere, in more ductile metal it is absorbed over a large area but in harden metals this absorption is resisted and some of the metal is pushed up causing a slight rise or bump. After bluing this bump wares at an accelerated rate, as a result the bluing in this area takes on a lighter appearance resulting in a Ã¢??haloÃ¢?Â. A change in crystalline structure (hardening) may also occur adjacent to the stamping reducing the effectiveness of bluing agents and over time cause the same halo effect.

If a gun is refinished this slight bump/hardening is removed and a halo will not reform naturally.

You can simulate the difference between hard and soft metals by using a candle and pencil tip and varying the temperature of the candle.

Vern

Dwight Gruber · 01-04-2008, 11:25 PM

Vern,

A good start, but headed in a slightly wrong direction.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Halo: Encircled with or as if with a halo.

Halo is an effect seen associated with the stamping of blued steel after the bluing has been applied.

Compression of the steel surrounding the stamping, possibly changing its crystalline structure, alters the appearance of the bluing of the affected steel, making it appear lighter and "washed out".

Sometimes the steel at the edges of the stamp is displaced upward.

Halo is one indicator of authenticity of finish on a Luger pistol. Certain markings are known to have been applied after the blue, and these marks usually will display halo. If a gun is refinished, the area of compressed steel will accept bluing as any other steel, and the halo will be eliminated. Any steel displacement will be smoothed out in the steel preparation process.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would be interesting to see an actual metallurgical explanation of the phenomenon.

--Dwight

11-17-2007, 01:33 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	1912 Refinish Or Not...??? What do you all think...original finish or not...? http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=84878671

11-17-2007, 02:44 PM	#2
Mauser720 User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kansas Posts: 535 Thanks: 18 Thanked 49 Times in 33 Posts	Pete - I am guessing that it is not the original finish for two reasons: (1) He makes this statement in his listing: "It looks like bottom part of the barrel at the chamber and left side at the chamber were spot touch up with rust blue after some pitting was removed." I don't know if you can do a "spot touch up" with anything other than typical cold blue; however, I could be wrong. (2) And I would have expected to see some indication of finish wear beneath the safety lever. Maybe it is there, but I can't see it. So I am going to guess that it has been refinished in at least in some places with typical cold blue. Mauser720-Ron __________________ Mauser720 - Ron "Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it."

11-17-2007, 10:40 PM	#7
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	I'm not so sure. It looks original to me. The hold open pin is still in the white, I think. Hard to be sure from his photos. The straw shows aging which would be very difficult to reproduce. I think it's original except for the barrel. My thought would be that someone tried to remove an import mark and botched it up. Removing part of the barrel SN in the process. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

11-18-2007, 11:08 AM	#10
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	"I disagree as the barrel is not original and the photos clearly show this." Rick, What indicates that the barrel is not original? Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

11-18-2007, 02:51 PM	#13
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Pete, Thanks for the close-ups. It does appear that it has been re-finished at some point. No "cratering" visible on the periphery of the numbers. Whoever did it, did a nice job of matching the hue of the original rust blue of the era. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

11-17-2007, 03:29 PM	#3
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Ron, The side view photos and inside frame well photos look really promising. Lots of "in the white" surfaces down in the wells. There are no "halos" on the barrel serial number. Depth of the barrel SN looks pretty shallow as well Also...no "halos" on the 2-digit numbers on the extractor and the toggle link. The partially cropped "9" on the chamber date had me worried as well. I think parts of this gun may have had touch ups...other parts may still have their original finish. Also...no impact or strike marks along the back of the frame where you usually see contact with the toggle train in its rear-most travel during firing :

11-17-2007, 04:23 PM	#4
RBorecky User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cleveland,Ohio Posts: 115 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The barrel was clearly redone but the rest is questionable and does look good. I wonder if it was pulled to redo the barrel wear from the holster or pitting. I know a guy who lathed one ever so slighlty to remove marks. That may have been doen to this barrrel. Rick B

11-17-2007, 07:24 PM	#5
tenbears User Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 370 Thanks: 3 Thanked 26 Times in 15 Posts	The magazine is a nice numbered and proofed Effurt. With one proof it should be post 1912 to 1918.

11-17-2007, 08:18 PM	#6
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	Nice gun, but I would have to say a redo for sure. It looks like a wire wheel was used except around the proof marks and edges. They were most likely done by hand as they appear smoother than the rest of the finish. The forward toggle link pivot joints have no ware, and neither does the rear of the frame. There are other inconsistencies also, minor by themselves but taken together with the redone barrel, I vote redo on the entire finish. Vern

11-18-2007, 05:40 AM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,312 Times in 430 Posts	I agree with Ron about the added holdopen pin being in the white, as is the center toggle axle retaining pin. I am much less sanguine about the apparent lack of fire blue on the breechblock pin and the sear spring. I think that what we have here is a sterling demonstration that photo analysis cannot be the final arbiter of condition of a Luger. --Dwight

11-18-2007, 12:34 PM	#11
RBorecky User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cleveland,Ohio Posts: 115 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The finish is not original on the barrel. Sorry if I made it sound like i meant the actual barrel. Rick B

11-18-2007, 03:00 PM	#14
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Here is a 1914 example off the Simpsons LTD site...

11-18-2007, 03:08 PM	#15
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Ron, You may be right...I do not think this one offered on G-B was 100% refinished...just key areas that were "blended"...for a touch-up. Many photos of the grip strap and area under the trigger plate show old finish and gunk and debris... Same with the frame wells...does not seem like the gun was chemically cleaned in a bath. Most of the strawed parts look old and aged...so maybe they were un-touched as well...

11-18-2007, 07:46 PM	#16
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,528 Times in 787 Posts	In my opinion there is no question that the gun has been refinished. The added hold-open's situation would indicate that not the whole gun but certainly the barrel and a few other parts.

01-04-2008, 04:35 PM	#18
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,929 Thanks: 2,029 Thanked 4,527 Times in 2,090 Posts	somebody write up a good explanation of what a halo is and when you see one (I know that rust blue aren't halo'd??) and I'll add it to the FAQ __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

01-04-2008, 10:04 PM	#19
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	OK: I am sure if I get this wrong someone will jump on me. Please feel free to correct me. Halo To encircle with or as if with a halo. Halos are most often associated with the stamping of harden metal such as barrels, extractors, breach blocks and some pins. As the stamp makes its indent the metal under the stamp must go somewhere, in more ductile metal it is absorbed over a large area but in harden metals this absorption is resisted and some of the metal is pushed up causing a slight rise or bump. After bluing this bump wares at an accelerated rate, as a result the bluing in this area takes on a lighter appearance resulting in a Ã¢??haloÃ¢?Â. A change in crystalline structure (hardening) may also occur adjacent to the stamping reducing the effectiveness of bluing agents and over time cause the same halo effect. If a gun is refinished this slight bump/hardening is removed and a halo will not reform naturally. You can simulate the difference between hard and soft metals by using a candle and pencil tip and varying the temperature of the candle. Vern

01-04-2008, 11:25 PM	#20
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,312 Times in 430 Posts	Vern, A good start, but headed in a slightly wrong direction. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Halo: Encircled with or as if with a halo. Halo is an effect seen associated with the stamping of blued steel after the bluing has been applied. Compression of the steel surrounding the stamping, possibly changing its crystalline structure, alters the appearance of the bluing of the affected steel, making it appear lighter and "washed out". Sometimes the steel at the edges of the stamp is displaced upward. Halo is one indicator of authenticity of finish on a Luger pistol. Certain markings are known to have been applied after the blue, and these marks usually will display halo. If a gun is refinished, the area of compressed steel will accept bluing as any other steel, and the halo will be eliminated. Any steel displacement will be smoothed out in the steel preparation process. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It would be interesting to see an actual metallurgical explanation of the phenomenon. --Dwight