Reichswehr 1920 property stamped Polizei Luger Opinions

Maestro · 11-08-2013, 09:55 PM

hello, would appreciate opinions on this Reichswehr 1920 property stamped Police Luger .

Maestro · 11-08-2013, 09:57 PM

what value would you place on this Luger?

Edward Tinker · 11-08-2013, 10:04 PM

1917 Erfurt with a gov't 1920 marking - went into police service and received a mag and sear safety - has been refinished at some point, would assume arsenal / so that would be expected...

I am assuming it has a matching magazine, and it looks like its in excellent condition. The magazine is aluminum, so is 1930's era likely. I would venture a $1400-1700 value

More information, rather than just pictures would help

all matching?

holster or anything else?

any unit markings?

Maestro · 11-08-2013, 10:08 PM

i thought the mag was matching?!!?

Edward Tinker · 11-08-2013, 10:12 PM

I changed what I wrote, as I assumed... but you don't show any pictures of the serial number, so its a guess that the '24' matches????

DavidJayUden · 11-08-2013, 10:35 PM

The mag. may match from its rebirth as a police gun. It is not a matching mag from its original military conception.
A nice gun. Congratulations!
dju

Maestro · 11-09-2013, 12:54 AM

What I know about it retains 98% of its original anodized finish throughout and it shows only very modest handling wear. The pistol also features all matching serial numbers.

The pistol was arsenal re-finished/re-worked in 1920 where the barrel was shortened to its current length. The gun was originally unit-marked on the inside grip area, but these markings were X-ed out during the arsenal refurbishment and are now illegible.

This weapon has a sear safety. I assume that the original mag was damaged and/or lost to time and that a replacement mag was inserted and serial-numbered at the time of the arsenal refurbishment to match the gun.

Unfortunately no other accessories, holster, extra magazine. Just the pistol. Hope that helps

Edward Tinker · 11-09-2013, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maestro

..

The pistol was arsenal re-finished/re-worked in 1920 where the barrel was shortened to its current length. The gun was originally unit-marked on the inside grip area, but these markings were X-ed out during the arsenal refurbishment and are now illegible.
...

NO, NO, NO
Old information and not correct

1920 is not the arsenal remarking - see the FAQ to read about the 1920 gov't marking

It would have been re marked whenever the unit changed or the gun went to a new police unit, could have been 1928 (or other date, sure not 1920).

Was the barrel shortened? if frame was DWM, then yes

Maestro · 11-09-2013, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

1920 is not the arsenal remarking - see the FAQ to read about the 1920 gov't marking

FAQ is a very valuable section, thanks Ed for reminding me of its presence. Here's the section on the so called "double date"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

FAQ#40 What is a double date?
Here is another area that is brought up, especially in the GunShow circuit. Double dates. True double datres are fairly rare, and what most folks call a double date is really a Reichswehr 1920 property stamping. I quote Jan Still: The 1920 stamp was added sometime between August 1920 and April 1921. It is a Reichswehr property stamp applied to identify the Luger as German Army property to prevent theft. Civilians were paid a bounty for turning in their unauthorized weapons to be destroyed. The Army feared the theft of its unmarked Lugers for the bounty.(Weimar Lugers page 20-23)

sheepherder · 11-12-2013, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maestro

The pistol was arsenal re-finished/re-worked in 1920 where the barrel was shortened to its current length.

What leads you to think the barrel was 'shortened'??? It has the correct taper for a 100mm barrel. The receiver does have the arty notch but that does not mean the barrel was shortened...

Can you see silver solder under the front sight band???

Maestro · 11-12-2013, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by postino

What leads you to think the barrel was 'shortened'??? It has the correct taper for a 100mm barrel. The receiver does have the arty notch but that does not mean the barrel was shortened...

Can you see silver solder under the front sight band???

very interesting; at this point, it's only an assumption that it was "shortened"; I will have the pistol in possession by next week and see.. in the meantime I'll see if the owner can answer this question.

klaus 3338 · 11-09-2013, 02:01 AM

It´s a "parts- gun": Receiver is DWM, toggle Erfurt.
Regards Klaus

Maestro · 11-09-2013, 10:34 AM

Ahh, thanks. Yes the barrel was shortened.

Geo99 · 11-09-2013, 02:22 PM

Klaus is correct.

This is not an Erfurt pistol. It is not what we call a matching numbers gun. It is a mismatched re-blued almost complete DWM - with a partial Erfurt toggle. The fact that the toggle train has the same numbers on it as the rest of the gun means nothing.
The frame, barrel/barrel extension, and all small parts are DWM. This gun has been reblued again more recently (after the Police refurb/reissue). Is there a SN stamped behind the rear sight? (there should be but I don't see one).

The matching mag is a nice touch but adds little value to the gun because:
1. the gun is not a complete original.
2. mag has been ground down and renumbered, but probably not by the police.
3. police issue mag should have a 1, 2, or 3 stamped on bottom.

$1100-$1200 is top value, as a nice mostly matching DWM shooter.

Sorry Maestro, it's probably not what you wanted to hear.

- Geo

Maestro · 11-09-2013, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geo99

Is there a SN stamped behind the rear sight? (there should be but I don't see one).

yes, it's "24"

Maestro · 11-09-2013, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geo99

The fact that the toggle train has the same numbers on it as the rest of the gun means nothing.

point well taken; the seller is going to carefully open up the inside & check the serial numbers. I asked him to send me pictures so i can post. thanks Geo.

Edward Tinker · 11-09-2013, 03:08 PM

Geo, I would want to see more before I would declare it reblued after the police.

The sear safety pin is in the white. I would want to see under it to see if it is in the white on the underside?

Not all police guns receive a 1, 2 or 3 - I agree I expect to see it. Do you see obvious regrinding on the base? I did not, but I am on my laptop. It does look odd, I would want to see pictures from the sides to see if reground and a real close up of the numbers.

Maestro · 11-09-2013, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

The sear safety pin is in the white. I would want to see under it to see if it is in the white on the underside?

yes, it is

it retains it's whitish color

Geo99 · 11-13-2013, 01:25 AM

Ed,

After looking at the newer pictures that were posted, I would say only the toggle parts have been reblued. I see what looks like fresh blue in worn areas on the toggle. The back of the side plate looks original with white parts, but that is one of the worst looking 1917 chamber date stamps I've seen in awhile - it's shallow and looks buffed out, but is still blue?

The finish difficult to evaluate from these pictures, but in any case, it's still just a 75% original gun.

I hope the new owner really likes it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

Geo, I would want to see more before I would declare it reblued after the police.

Maestro · 11-16-2013, 07:19 PM

Assuming that this was a Artillery Luger that was shortened, would this be an appropriate holster?

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11-08-2013, 09:55 PM	#1
Maestro User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: "Where the streets have no names" Posts: 504 Thanks: 192 Thanked 200 Times in 136 Posts	Reichswehr 1920 property stamped Polizei Luger Opinions hello, would appreciate opinions on this Reichswehr 1920 property stamped Police Luger . Attached Thumbnails Last edited by Maestro; 11-09-2013 at 08:20 PM. Reason: corrected terminology

11-09-2013, 02:22 PM	#14
Geo99 User Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Whidbey Island WA Posts: 398 Thanks: 102 Thanked 125 Times in 74 Posts	Klaus is correct. This is not an Erfurt pistol. It is not what we call a matching numbers gun. It is a mismatched re-blued almost complete DWM - with a partial Erfurt toggle. The fact that the toggle train has the same numbers on it as the rest of the gun means nothing. The frame, barrel/barrel extension, and all small parts are DWM. This gun has been reblued again more recently (after the Police refurb/reissue). Is there a SN stamped behind the rear sight? (there should be but I don't see one). The matching mag is a nice touch but adds little value to the gun because: 1. the gun is not a complete original. 2. mag has been ground down and renumbered, but probably not by the police. 3. police issue mag should have a 1, 2, or 3 stamped on bottom. $1100-$1200 is top value, as a nice mostly matching DWM shooter. Sorry Maestro, it's probably not what you wanted to hear. - Geo __________________ "Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie, until you can find a rock." - Will Rogers

11-09-2013, 03:08 PM	#17
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Geo, I would want to see more before I would declare it reblued after the police. The sear safety pin is in the white. I would want to see under it to see if it is in the white on the underside? Not all police guns receive a 1, 2 or 3 - I agree I expect to see it. Do you see obvious regrinding on the base? I did not, but I am on my laptop. It does look odd, I would want to see pictures from the sides to see if reground and a real close up of the numbers. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-16-2013, 07:19 PM	#20
Maestro User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: "Where the streets have no names" Posts: 504 Thanks: 192 Thanked 200 Times in 136 Posts	1915 Luger Artillery Holster Converted to Military Standard Luger Assuming that this was a Artillery Luger that was shortened, would this be an appropriate holster? Attached Thumbnails

11-08-2013, 09:57 PM	#2
Maestro User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: "Where the streets have no names" Posts: 504 Thanks: 192 Thanked 200 Times in 136 Posts	what value would you place on this Luger?

11-08-2013, 10:04 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	1917 Erfurt with a gov't 1920 marking - went into police service and received a mag and sear safety - has been refinished at some point, would assume arsenal / so that would be expected... I am assuming it has a matching magazine, and it looks like its in excellent condition. The magazine is aluminum, so is 1930's era likely. I would venture a $1400-1700 value More information, rather than just pictures would help all matching? holster or anything else? any unit markings?

11-08-2013, 10:08 PM	#4
Maestro User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: "Where the streets have no names" Posts: 504 Thanks: 192 Thanked 200 Times in 136 Posts	i thought the mag was matching?!!?

11-08-2013, 10:12 PM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	I changed what I wrote, as I assumed... but you don't show any pictures of the serial number, so its a guess that the '24' matches????

11-08-2013, 10:35 PM	#6
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	The mag. may match from its rebirth as a police gun. It is not a matching mag from its original military conception. A nice gun. Congratulations! dju

11-09-2013, 12:54 AM	#7
Maestro User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: "Where the streets have no names" Posts: 504 Thanks: 192 Thanked 200 Times in 136 Posts	What I know about it retains 98% of its original anodized finish throughout and it shows only very modest handling wear. The pistol also features all matching serial numbers. The pistol was arsenal re-finished/re-worked in 1920 where the barrel was shortened to its current length. The gun was originally unit-marked on the inside grip area, but these markings were X-ed out during the arsenal refurbishment and are now illegible. This weapon has a sear safety. I assume that the original mag was damaged and/or lost to time and that a replacement mag was inserted and serial-numbered at the time of the arsenal refurbishment to match the gun. Unfortunately no other accessories, holster, extra magazine. Just the pistol. Hope that helps

11-09-2013, 02:01 AM	#12
klaus 3338 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 517 Thanks: 0 Thanked 408 Times in 160 Posts	It´s a "parts- gun": Receiver is DWM, toggle Erfurt. Regards Klaus

11-09-2013, 10:34 AM	#13
Maestro User Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: "Where the streets have no names" Posts: 504 Thanks: 192 Thanked 200 Times in 136 Posts	Ahh, thanks. Yes the barrel was shortened.