Shooting High

saxman · 07-22-2003, 09:14 PM

Forgive me if I'm rehashing something that's already settled, but I have seen much discussion on the tendency to shoot the Luger high, and it occurred to me why that is. It's the rear sight, or what passes for one. With the sights properly aligned, you can hardly see the tip of the front sight through that channel. Every time I point mine, I seem to automatically set the front sight higher, presumably to see it. Obviously, one can control this and sight properly, but I imagine in a combat situation a soldier with not much training on the pistol would do the same thing. I would never countenance altering the rear sight but just content myself with aiming carefully, since I'm never going to be in combat with a Luger.

Hugh · 07-23-2003, 01:16 AM

Saxman,

I hate to be picky, but if you raise the front sight higher in relation to the top of the rear sight, and hold to the same "point of aim", that is going to make your shots strike the target LOWER not HIGHER.

ratdog · 07-23-2003, 06:46 AM

Is that true?, the armadillo thing, not the luger...................

unspellable · 07-23-2003, 09:03 AM

Bear in mind the Parabellum, at least in military versions, is sighted for 50 meters. This means that if the sights are dead to specification, it can be expected to shoot a bit high at 25 yards.

Work up a nice flinch and then you will shoot low!

saxman · 07-23-2003, 09:58 AM

Hugh; I'm not talking about physically raising the front sight by installing a higher one - I'm saying if you hold the gun so you can see enough of the front sight to line up on the target, the gun will shoot high. The rear sight in this theoretical circumstance would be on target center but the top of the front sight would be above the center of the target. You shoot high. In order to properly sight the gun you have to line up the top of the front sight with the invisible line across the top of the rear sight notch. Since the notch is so small, this takes a moment, and the natural tendency is too put a little more of the sight up in the target, particularly if you're in a hurry. At least, that's my theory.

unspellable · 07-23-2003, 05:39 PM

ratdog,

It's been my experience that armadillos sit in the middle of the road trying to make up their mind which way to run when you are bearing down on them in a car. The effort is so strenuous that you can see smoke coming out of their ears.

The ones sleeping in the road with their feet in the air are there for the Long Sleep. They can be distinguished from those overturned in the wake of a semi by the fact that the latter will be waving their feet.

Somewhere I have a mathematical treatise on the distance between two sleeping armadillos. For the mathematically inclined, it involves hyperbolic functions.

Edward Tinker · 07-23-2003, 05:46 PM

Ohhhh, hyperbolic functions. I knew this would get silly.

Eveyone with a sense of a math, like brain (like me, I got c+'s almost EVERY year!!), would know that hyper means fast-like, so you meant hydrobolic, cuz, I know that dillo's and water and cold don't mix, they melt like the wicked old witch in the Wizard of Oz, that is why they live down south!

my three cents!

Heydrich · 07-23-2003, 07:06 PM

With all the long straight roads in Texas, I’d guess that it would be more a function of Euclidian geometry than hyperbolic functions (spherical geometry). But I suppose if you did have two lines of dead armadillos that were parallel to each other, they could intersect at a point – Hugh’s house.

Sieger · 07-24-2003, 11:46 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by saxman:
Forgive me if I'm rehashing something that's already settled, but I have seen much discussion on the tendency to shoot the Luger high, and it occurred to me why that is. It's the rear sight, or what passes for one. With the sights properly aligned, you can hardly see the tip of the front sight through that channel. Every time I point mine, I seem to automatically set the front sight higher, presumably to see it. Obviously, one can control this and sight properly, but I imagine in a combat situation a soldier with not much training on the pistol would do the same thing. I would never countenance altering the rear sight but just content myself with aiming carefully, since I'm never going to be in combat with a Luger.<hr /></blockquote>Hi Saxman:

All of my Lugers shoot about 4 inches high at 25 yards. Yes, this is a little bit of an annoyance, but they were sighted in for twice that distance.

Regarding combat shooting, a soldier rarely gets to sight a pistol in combat, but rather, relies on instinct shooting. At this, the Luger is a real champ, as it has some of the very best natural aiming characteristics.

The Germans did improve the sights on their P-38 to allow for more light to be seen on both sides of the front blade. Unfortunately, the P-38s I have owned have never approached the accuracy of the Luger.

Bob

Doubs · 07-24-2003, 12:28 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Sieger:
 Regarding combat shooting, a soldier rarely gets to sight a pistol in combat, but rather, relies on instinct shooting. At this, the Luger is a real champ, as it has some of the very best natural aiming characteristics.
Bob<hr /></blockquote>My father used to tell me of a time when he and two friends were walking across a cow pasture and a snake stuck it's head up a few yards away. My father, Luger in hand, snapped off a shot from the hip and the snake's head simply disappeared. His friends just stood there with their mouths hanging open in complete astonishment. My father considers that shot to perhaps be the luckiest one he ever made.... but he didn't tell his friends that!

saxman · 07-24-2003, 03:41 PM

Sieger; Just my point. For a zero at 50 yds., the 9mm Luger will be only 0.7" high at 25 yds. You're shooting high, probably because you're seeing a little too much front sight.

Sieger · 08-17-2003, 02:14 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by saxman:
Sieger; Just my point. For a zero at 50 yds., the 9mm Luger will be only 0.7" high at 25 yds. You're shooting high, probably because you're seeing a little too much front sight.<hr /></blockquote>Dear saxman:

I have shot 8 rounds in a hole just a hair larger than a quarter at 25 yards (bench rested hands, naturally). The group was approximately 4 inches high.

I've never tried 50 yards, but I have shot very excellent groups at 100 yard rifle targets. At 100 yards, it shot right on!!

Bob

07-22-2003, 09:14 PM	#1
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Shooting High Forgive me if I'm rehashing something that's already settled, but I have seen much discussion on the tendency to shoot the Luger high, and it occurred to me why that is. It's the rear sight, or what passes for one. With the sights properly aligned, you can hardly see the tip of the front sight through that channel. Every time I point mine, I seem to automatically set the front sight higher, presumably to see it. Obviously, one can control this and sight properly, but I imagine in a combat situation a soldier with not much training on the pistol would do the same thing. I would never countenance altering the rear sight but just content myself with aiming carefully, since I'm never going to be in combat with a Luger. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

07-23-2003, 01:16 AM	#2
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	Saxman, I hate to be picky, but if you raise the front sight higher in relation to the top of the rear sight, and hold to the same "point of aim", that is going to make your shots strike the target LOWER not HIGHER. __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

07-23-2003, 09:58 AM	#5
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hugh; I'm not talking about physically raising the front sight by installing a higher one - I'm saying if you hold the gun so you can see enough of the front sight to line up on the target, the gun will shoot high. The rear sight in this theoretical circumstance would be on target center but the top of the front sight would be above the center of the target. You shoot high. In order to properly sight the gun you have to line up the top of the front sight with the invisible line across the top of the rear sight notch. Since the notch is so small, this takes a moment, and the natural tendency is too put a little more of the sight up in the target, particularly if you're in a hurry. At least, that's my theory. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

07-23-2003, 05:46 PM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,933 Thanks: 2,032 Thanked 4,530 Times in 2,092 Posts	Ohhhh, hyperbolic functions. I knew this would get silly. Eveyone with a sense of a math, like brain (like me, I got c+'s almost EVERY year!!), would know that hyper means fast-like, so you meant hydrobolic, cuz, I know that dillo's and water and cold don't mix, they melt like the wicked old witch in the Wizard of Oz, that is why they live down south! my three cents! __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-24-2003, 11:46 AM	#9
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by saxman: <strong>Forgive me if I'm rehashing something that's already settled, but I have seen much discussion on the tendency to shoot the Luger high, and it occurred to me why that is. It's the rear sight, or what passes for one. With the sights properly aligned, you can hardly see the tip of the front sight through that channel. Every time I point mine, I seem to automatically set the front sight higher, presumably to see it. Obviously, one can control this and sight properly, but I imagine in a combat situation a soldier with not much training on the pistol would do the same thing. I would never countenance altering the rear sight but just content myself with aiming carefully, since I'm never going to be in combat with a Luger.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Hi Saxman: All of my Lugers shoot about 4 inches high at 25 yards. Yes, this is a little bit of an annoyance, but they were sighted in for twice that distance. Regarding combat shooting, a soldier rarely gets to sight a pistol in combat, but rather, relies on instinct shooting. At this, the Luger is a real champ, as it has some of the very best natural aiming characteristics. The Germans did improve the sights on their P-38 to allow for more light to be seen on both sides of the front blade. Unfortunately, the P-38s I have owned have never approached the accuracy of the Luger. Bob

07-23-2003, 06:46 AM	#3
ratdog User Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 147 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Is that true?, the armadillo thing, not the luger...................

07-23-2003, 09:03 AM	#4
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	Bear in mind the Parabellum, at least in military versions, is sighted for 50 meters. This means that if the sights are dead to specification, it can be expected to shoot a bit high at 25 yards. Work up a nice flinch and then you will shoot low!

07-23-2003, 05:39 PM	#6
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	ratdog, It's been my experience that armadillos sit in the middle of the road trying to make up their mind which way to run when you are bearing down on them in a car. The effort is so strenuous that you can see smoke coming out of their ears. The ones sleeping in the road with their feet in the air are there for the Long Sleep. They can be distinguished from those overturned in the wake of a semi by the fact that the latter will be waving their feet. Somewhere I have a mathematical treatise on the distance between two sleeping armadillos. For the mathematically inclined, it involves hyperbolic functions.

07-23-2003, 07:06 PM	#8
Heydrich Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	With all the long straight roads in Texas, I’d guess that it would be more a function of Euclidian geometry than hyperbolic functions (spherical geometry). But I suppose if you did have two lines of dead armadillos that were parallel to each other, they could intersect at a point – Hugh’s house.

07-24-2003, 12:28 PM	#10
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,696 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,679 Times in 552 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Sieger: <strong> Regarding combat shooting, a soldier rarely gets to sight a pistol in combat, but rather, relies on instinct shooting. At this, the Luger is a real champ, as it has some of the very best natural aiming characteristics. Bob</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">My father used to tell me of a time when he and two friends were walking across a cow pasture and a snake stuck it's head up a few yards away. My father, Luger in hand, snapped off a shot from the hip and the snake's head simply disappeared. His friends just stood there with their mouths hanging open in complete astonishment. My father considers that shot to perhaps be the luckiest one he ever made.... but he didn't tell his friends that!

07-24-2003, 03:41 PM	#11
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Sieger; Just my point. For a zero at 50 yds., the 9mm Luger will be only 0.7" high at 25 yds. You're shooting high, probably because you're seeing a little too much front sight. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

08-17-2003, 02:14 AM	#12
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by saxman: <strong>Sieger; Just my point. For a zero at 50 yds., the 9mm Luger will be only 0.7" high at 25 yds. You're shooting high, probably because you're seeing a little too much front sight.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Dear saxman: I have shot 8 rounds in a hole just a hair larger than a quarter at 25 yards (bench rested hands, naturally). The group was approximately 4 inches high. I've never tried 50 yards, but I have shot very excellent groups at 100 yard rifle targets. At 100 yards, it shot right on!! Bob

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