Import/non-import

Hey guys can you tell me what Lugers were not imported into the US. I would like to know where DWM and Mauser had there US based factories for turning out all the non import Lugers. If you are looking for a shooter you should be looking for an import as you can usually get them cheaper. I have a real hard time with the lack of respect the imports have been getting, to me an import marked gun is more authentic than the now high priced ones that were sold originally by Ye Old Huters Lodge or Kleins in the 1950's and 60's for 29.95 and are now being sold as non imports for big bucks. At least most of the import marked Lugers have some history as far as being captured and put into war reserves. There are a lot of young and new collectors that could be starting a great collection using the better import marked Lugers if it were not for the bad connotation that some of the older collectors are using to keep the prices of their pieces up. You show me a non imported original German made Luger and I will buy you a cup of coffee when you come to Austin, Texas.


Tracy

[bill m]

Hi Tracy,

I guess it all depends on your definition and classification of a "great collection". I personally have absolutely no use for an import marked post WWII Luger. If that is what you want to collect, "post WWII used Lugers", then go for it, but don't try to lump them all together and tell me that there is no difference except the price. Most imports are classified more in the shooter catagory, but to me this doen't make much since either. If all you want is a pure shooter, then why not get a 40% or less gun and shoot it, with no concern for value or collection interest. Also, why buy an import marked Luger, and then have it refinished? Once a Luger is import marked, or dip blued, it will never, and can never be again, an as issued Luger. You should be more appreciative of the collections of "as issued" Lugers, and realize that some people would rather not have an example, as to have one that is not correct for that time period. Also, if not for the collectors, you would not have any of the books that you use to try and determine just which variation you have. And, you would not have a clue as to what is correct and real, as compared to what is a counterfiet or a fake. There is nothing wrong with having or collecting import marked Lugers, as that is your choice, but they must be recognized as what they are, which is a post war used Luger in non original as issued condition. No dis-respect intended.

What the term "imported" most commonly refers to are recently imported and Importer MARKED pistols that have come in from the former Eastbloc countries.

These Russian and East German rebuilt pistols are the "imported" Lugers. There are also some Finnish Lugers that fit this category.

The non-imports are Lugers that were imported by places like Stoeger and include the tens of thousands of Lugers that were brought home by USGI's from two World Wars.

There was also a time when imports were not marked by the importers as is now done.


Mike

[Johnny Peppers]

It makes no difference as to how the Lugers originally entered the US, their know history starts at that time. Any speculation about the pistols currently being imported from the former Soviet Union being used in operation Barbarossa is to design the pistols history to suit your liking. The Russian pistols may have been captured at Stalingrad, or they may have been captured in Berlin. The fact that most of them lay rusting away in a Russian warehouse until the Russians discovered that they were a source of much needed capital adds nothing to their history. I have never seen an absolutely 100% unused military P08, so apparently all Lugers were used and who is to say that the 98% original piece has no history where the dip blued import stamped Luger does? I think that it is great that another shooter grade of Luger has been offered to the public to satisfy those that have been seeking a good shooter Luger but didn't want to pay the price of a collector grade. Not too many years ago there was very little difference in the price of a 95% and a 98% military P08, but the difference in their prices are moving farther and farther apart and this is driven by demand. We are lucky to live in a time and place where we can own the Luger we prefer with only a small inconvenience.

I have been collecting Lugers for almost 40 years and will not turn up my nose at an Import. Its up to each individual to collect what they want and not impose their values on others. What I am saying is that alot of you guys are paying top dollar for guns that were inported in the 50's and 60's and the only difference now is that they are marked. I know dealers that are not marking their recent imports especially in the area of P38s. A new collector can make a collection from the imports where he cannot afford the originals plus they make great shooters saving the others for the true collector. If someone is passing a restored Luger off as original be it inport or otherwise they will go out of there way to cheat an individual in some other manner, at least with an import stamp a person knows what he is buying. Ted is restoring a "K" date for me and as he said he marks his restorations. I don't need money bad enough to cheat someone by passing it off as a bringback.I happen to belive that you treat people as you want to be treated. The fakers and cheaters will answer some day. There are enough rarities now being inported that have changed the thinking of many of the experts and authors. Serial number ranges have been expanded and clarified. Unit designations are showing up that have not been seen before and in some cases are authenticating others. I say don't downgrade or cause others to downgrade something that has one more documented step in its historical chain just because you don't want to own it.

[Johnny Peppers]

Tracy,

As you posted under my post I suppose you were replying to me and I don't believe that anywhere in it was I trying to impose my values on you. I said that I thought it was great that there is a source of shooter grade Lugers out there for those that have been looking for one. Also, I don't condone individuals or dealers refinishing pistols and selling them as original. Where did I even imply that you would ever try to pass your K-Date off as original?

Just bear in mind that everyone collects to satisfy their own interests and if that interest leans toward import marked pistols I think it is great, but by the same token those that prefer the absolute best examples that they can find also deserve the same consideration. There are many types of pistols that I have no interest in collecting, but I don't think that these collectors are out of step just because I don't have any interest in what they collect.

I also think it is great that new information is coming to light, and I believe that most on the forum would welcome this information if you should care to share it.

I learned, a long time ago, that I'm NOT a collector. I can't stand having a gun I can't shoot! From where I sit I can see both sides of this argument. My Luger is a thing of beauty to me, even tho it has an import stamp on it. At least I can shoot it. The fact that it's imported does not affect the fact that the serial numbers, proof marks and "character" scratches still refer to it's rich history. So what if it's been refinished and restored to it's original striking appearance - it is still the same steel and craftmanship of that era in history, and I'm it's proud owner.


I understand there are personalities that prefer to revel in the originality and own things just for their viewing enjoyment. But to me that's like owning a Mazarati and not driving it. You miss out on the best part! That's my .02!

No was not meant for you just general posting got out of sync.


Take care not trying to start war but have had some serious reservations about this for a long time, as new collectors have been priced out of market and they need to be able to start somewhere.

Perhaps if we can find out what the markings on the Russian pistols mean the value of them will increase.

Older reference works speak poorly of 1920 commercials and "double date" pistols, these are collectable now.

The total number of Russian reworks is probably small, I think there will be some interest.

I'm reminded of the WWII metal handled "samurai swords" of no interest to Japanese sword collectors, but of some interest to WWII Japanese militaria collectors.

[Marvin]

After reading the postings on the subject of Import/Non-Import marked Lugers, I wanted to add my .02 cents worth.


A Luger, is a Luger, is a Luger! This staement is true regardless whether it is import marked, dip blued, or reworked. The pistol still has a certain history behind it. I am speaking mostly of the recent Russian imports. I am a collector, but I do own a couple of Import Marked Lugers which Ted has reworked one back to original condition, and the second one is with him now. I feel these two Lugers have a very rich history and deserve to have the "dip blue" removed and brought back to a condition closer to the original. Now, these pistols should never have the same value as my 99% 1938 pistol. To me, this takes nothing away from the pistols history, makes it look very nice, and I can shoot it and not worry about decreasings it's value.


To me, there are three types of Lugers that folks collect. One, the true collectors piece which is in orginal condition and at least 95% condition. Second, is the recent Import Marked, Dip Blued Pistols, Third, any reworked Luger which may include the nickle plated, replaced barrels, etc. Each of these have their own set of monetary values and each have a place in anyones collection for whatever purpose they are collected. There are some folks that LOVE Lugers, but can't afford the $1,000 and up pistols they would like to own and the Import Marked ones for $400-500 allow them to purchase and enjoy this great pistol.


I appreciate all Lugers, regardless of condition. We don't need to put down anyone because of the type Luger he has. Just enjoy them for what they are; a Luger is a Luger, is a Luger.


Marvin

Interesting discussion guys. As someone who has been buying & selling imported lugers since the late 1950s, I'd like to add my 2 cents worth. It's only been since the 1968 Gun Control act, that the US govt has required the name of the importer, city, and caliber to be stamped on the pistol. The requirement that country of manufacture (I suspose for tarrif purposes) has been on the books from before 1900 (e.g. "Germany" marked M1900AEs, 1920 commericals, and many WW1 surplus guns brought in by Stoeger et al.) Since almost all of these "commerical" pistols found in the US have these markings, they are considered "factory original" and are not considered shooters. Since so many military used lugers were brough back by GIs or some how imported in the late 40s & 50s without any official import markings, these are considered more desirable than similar unrefinished matching militaries that arrived in the 1970s from Norway etc. I believe that a strong case can be made, particularly for the renumber "matching" E. German reworks, since none of these started appearing here prior to the 1968 law, that these are proper "collectables" as is with the new EG installed barrels, brown plastic grips & post war produced Schmeisser mags, and VOPO markings and are as collectable a rework as the post WW1 Weimar reworked pistols. The collector market just hasn't accepted it yet. Just wait a few years, until these have their own chapter in the luger books. This is already happenig for Post WW2 P38s reworks because of Buxton's Vol 3.

[John Sabato]

[Frank]

Gentlemen,


It is rather obvious that each of you have you own opinions. That exactly what it is, your own opinions.


Why is it that you think that your opinions are the same as all the other opinions? Everyone has their own. If you think it is important to have a pristine Luger with matching serial numbers, including the magazine markings, then grand. If you think it is important to shoot only those Lugers with mixed serial numbers or import stamps, then fine. But for pity sake letâ??s give everyone his own choice as to his or her own preference.


It really doesnâ??t mean anything to keep rehashing the same old rhetoric on your beliefs. It doesnâ??t mean a thing, except to you. If I choose to shoot a â??collectableâ?� thatâ??s my business and the chance I take in devaluing my pistol is my choice, not anyone elseâ??s.


It doesnâ??t make much difference if it is a true original, an old import or a new import. The beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Your eye is not the same as my eye. It doesnâ??t mean the your eye is right and my eye is wrong, or visa versa.


This topic has been around for a long time, at least three or four times in my recollection. Why are we continuing to beat a dead horse? Each of us has their own agenda. Why not keep it that way?


My $0.03 worth

Tracy, I see that your 3 cent opinion is worth 50% more than my 2 cents worth. I find no fault with your views. Beauty is indeed, in the eye of the beholder.

[Marvin]

Frank,


Good Point and you have hit the "nail on the head"!


Marvin

[bill m]

Yes, there is room for all Luger fanciers here, but accept your Luger for what it really is. Yes, this is my opinion, but it also has a lot of facts to back it up. A Luger is a Luger is a Luger, which means what......accept a counterfiet because it looks, feels, and smells like a Luger? Accept reproduction products and refinishes because they look, feel and smell like an original? If these imports are so legimate, and have so much history, why are you refinishing them and changing once again, there appearance? I called a guy a couple of years ago and asked him about some Lugers he had advertised. One was a 1936 S/42 Police with a sear safety, and the other was a 1939 Code 42 with no serial number on the receiver and only a 42, for an arsenal replacement. Rare Lugers with a hefty price tag. When I received them they were both dip blued and import marked. When I returned them the guy say, and I quote, "I guess I should have told you that they were import marked and dip blued". This is a very common practice with these import guns. A lot a new collectors are getting stuck with them everyday as being an original issued piece, and paying triple what a shooter is worth. They are not only a blessing for the new collectors and shooters, but also big curse. Was the 1939 code 42 a real, rare gun? We will never know, but if you want to use it to authenticate (as some in this thread have suggested) other rare Lugers, go ahead. How can you authenticate something that is not known to be authentic to start with. It is your choice to collect or acquire whatever is your preference, but be honest about it. It is your privilege to defend your import Lugers, and please do so, but they are being mis-represented every day, and made up to be "rare" variations. The guys selling them are going to tell you that they will have collector value, as they want to make more on them. Their selling and you're buying. I have nothing against the import Lugers if they are represented honestly and correctly. One last thing, and I'm done on this issue, I promise, just how long do you think those 3 little marks on the base of the stock lug on Ted's refinished guns are going to last when these guns are re-sold down the road, not by the present owners, but after they resale them?

[Frank]

[bill m]

[Ted]

I like both shooters and collection pieces. I shoot my shooters and admire and care for my collector pieces. Ted

[Johnny Peppers]

The best way to let these threads die a peaceful death is to resist the urge to get the last jab in. Don't come on and admonish everone else for expressing their opinion and then pull up your chair and give several paragraphs of your own opinions. Rehashing the same old rhetoric has already been done, and the dead horse has already been beaten. For the good of all, let this slip into the archives.