Finnish Luger

[stg44fan]

Said I was getting another one and here it is. Picked it up last week. As you can see it is a Finnish M23 Luger with a mix of parts, nothing has the same serial numbers, Tikka 4" 9mm barrel, hole drilled in bottom of the breach block, SA stamps. DWM marked toggle with unmarked chamber. Hold open is present and works. All around a good looking little Luger. Price was right and it is in better than expected condition. Grips fit poorly but other than that I am pleased with my purchase.

So I have looked at a lot of pics of Finnish Luger's and I have not seen consistent placement of the SA stamp. Did they just stamp them wherever they felt like it? Mine has it on the left and back of the frame along with over the serial number on the receiver. Common practice?

And the serial number on the frame. It just does not look right. Numbers look too far apart from one another and the wrong shape. Were some filled in and re-stamped at some point? Plus the proof is missing from the right side of the receiver but a small spot is present where one might have been.

Just small details I noticed. Oh, and it came with one SA marked magazine. Mag has seen better days for sure. Anyways let me know what you guys think.

Thanks,
Eric

[DonVoigt]

Good catch; ones I have seen the SA moves around but is usually on the left chamber as is yours.
Cool to have the SA marked mag, even if not perfect.

[rhuff]

I have been told on another forum that 5K Finnish Lugers were issued with factory shoulder stocks......so 4in. bbl. with shoulder stocks. Can anyone on this forum confirm or deny this information?? I had never heard this information before, and would like to know if valid information. Sorry for the thread drift, but it does relate to Finnish Lugers.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by rhuff

I have been told on another forum that 5K Finnish Lugers were issued with factory shoulder stocks......so 4in. bbl. with shoulder stocks. Can anyone on this forum confirm or deny this information?? I had never heard this information before, and would like to know if valid information. Sorry for the thread drift, but it does relate to Finnish Lugers.

Pretty much correct, there are several threads here or the other luger forum on these lugers and stocks.

Just use the search feature.

[Sky Zero]

cool

[stg44fan]

That sounds correct from my research. Unfortunately I did not get a stock. Maybe I'll run across one someday. Found some great threads on Finnish Luger's on this and the other forum.

Also found some good ones here.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=426709

[rhuff]

I learned something new today!! Now if I can just remember it for more than a day....thanx.

[Patrick Sweeney]

Just out of curiosity, why the hole in the bottom of the breechblock?

Deactivated/ Vent in case of case rupture? Just to be different?

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Patrick Sweeney

Just out of curiosity, why the hole in the bottom of the breechblock?

Deactivated/ Vent in case of case rupture? Just to be different?

Vent for gas in case of pierced primer/case rupture.
Not to be different, for reason above.

[stg44fan]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Vent for gas in case of pierced primer/case rupture.
Not to be different, for reason above.

Every SA with a Tikka barrel I've seen has this. I hear it was done to pistols converted from 7.65 to 9mm. Anybody with more knowledge than me confirm this?

[stg44fan]

From my research it looks like Finland purchased 5000 Luger's from Germany in 1923. Majority in 7.65 because of the restrictions of the Versailles peace treaty. Then more were purchased for the Winter War in 1938 and the remaining 7.65 pistols were converted to 9mm at that time. The Finnish Luger's that made it through the Winter War and the Continuation War got the SA stamp around 1945 and stayed in the Finnish Army for a long time. I read that some were in service as late as 1980. They are really interesting and unusual Luger's. Don't seem to get the attention that others do.

[Ron Wood]

I don't know for sure, but I do not think the Versailles treaty was applicable for foreign contract sales. It would be legal to manufacture and provide 9mm guns to other countries (I think ).

[Dwight Gruber]

Originally Posted by Dwight Gruber

Versailles Treaty
...Article 168: “The manufacture of arms, munitions, or any war material, shall only be carried out in factories or works the locations of which shall be communicated to or approved by [the Allied Powers], and the number of which they retain the right to restrict.

“Within three months [ ], all other establishments for the manufacture, preparation, storage, or design of [war materials] shall be closed down.”

Article 170: [ ]…the manufacture for, and export to, foreign countries of arms, munitions and war materials of every kind [shall be strictly prohibited].

Section IV, Articles 203-210: establish and empower the Interallied Military Control Commission (IMKK).

Article 211: “After the expiration of [a specified period], the German laws must have been modified and shall be maintained by the German Government in conformation with [the treaty].

“Within the same period all administration or other measures for execution of [the treaty] must have been taken.”

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...=--Dwight+IMKK

The P08 (9mm, 100cm barrel) was defined as "war material" (hence, the continuation of "commercial" Parabellum production in 7,65mm/98cm barrels).

--Dwight

[Ron Wood]

Thanks Dwight. From your Treaty info it sounds like the Finns would have received 7.65mm guns in the 1923 time frame. I have a couple of questions: It would seem that given "Allied Powers" approval, there could have been 9mm guns produced for Finland (not saying they were, just posing the question); The use of square brackets "[ ]" usually indicates addition of words not found in the original text but inferred by context, so the question is: who added the "shall be strictly prohibited" to Article 170?
Ron

[Dwight Gruber]

Ron,

The export prohibition was one of the most contentious articles of the Treaty. The German's constant contravention of it at came the closest to being the deal breaker in the path of the IMKK's decommissioning. I think you could view the Treaty as prima facie denial of approval--the French would have vetoed it out of hand, in any case.

I played a little 'fast and loose' with my use of brackets in the service of clarity within the context of the thesis--perhaps a little too much so. The full text of Article 170 reads:

"Importation into Germany of arms, munitions, and war material of every kind shall be strictly prohibited.

"The same applies to the manufacture of, and export to, foreign countries of arms, munitions, and war material of every kind."

--Dwight

[Ron Wood]

Thanks.
Ron

[jussi16]

Here is some info about SA-markings.

[stg44fan]

Originally Posted by jussi16

Here is some info about SA-markings.

Thanks! I've seen this pic before. A little more digging uncovered this. Anybody know what book this is from?

sheepherder - "a Dicked barrel"! Now that is funny!

Vlim - A T marked barrel in 7.65? Wouldn't a Tikkakoski barrel indicate it's been replaced? And I was under the impression a re barrel would have been in 9mm. Either way I would like to see some pics of you Finnish Luger.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by stg44fan

sheepherder - "a Dicked barrel"! Now that is funny!

Yeah, sort of. I would have thought the true comment on Lt Woods more to the point.

I think it's a vulgar Finnish term, similar to 'woodie'. Innocuous in itself, it has crude connotations in certain phrasing.

I'm a Richard myself, and 'Dick' is about the only nickname that annoys me. I've been called that in belittlement. Usually by an ex-wife on her way out...

I have a Takkakoski 9mm barrel, the 120mm one, but it is unmarked.

[jussi16]

"Tikka" in finnish means the woodpecker, the bird. So the whole name "Tikkakoski" is something like the woodpecker stream or torrent(?).
There is no reason to be upset about it.
I am a Finn...