1937 Mauser

[Insayn]

Thanks for the add to the forum.
Not too long ago my father passed down to me a German Luger my grandfather brought back from WWII. When the time comes I'll pass it to my eldest.
From the brief time I had to research this forum I've determined it's a 1937 Mauser Luftwaffe I believe. It has a 3 digit serial number, not 4 and no letter. Just about all the parts have the 3 digit number on or the last 2 digits. My question is the cocking assembly has 2 different digits. I am positive my grandfather had not done anything to it. Is it common for parts produced elsewhere to have different numbers? I'll post clear pictures when I get a chance this evening.

[guns3545]

Rob,

Welcome to the Forum!

Firstly, pictures are really the most effective way to get your questions answered and so we await them.

Secondly, what makes you think this P.08 was used by a Luftwaffe unit?

Thirdly, in ansewr to your question; P.08s were marked with the full serial number including suffix or no suffix on the front of the frame. The serial number without suffix is also stamped on the left side of the receiver. Most other small parts are stamped with the last two digits of the serial number. Blocks started with SN 1 and went to 10,000. The serial number may also include a suffix depending on the sequence of manufacturing. Production started in 1934 with NS and proceeded through the alphabet, less the letter j. It then repeated again and again..

Fourth, it is NOT usual or correct for serial numbers to be mixed on any given gun. Guns left the factory with all serial numbers matching in accordance with the description given above.

Hope this helps.

Just FYI, the 1937 year did include a block without suffix. The non-suffix block of 10,000 guns was produced in the October time frame or so. Mauser produced about 128,000 guns in 1937. The vast majority went to the Army.

John

[Insayn]

[Vlim]

Made it visible.

[guns3545]

Gerben,

Thank you for facilitating the picture.

Rob,

Thanks for posting the picture. Now we have a puzzle.

The NS block of guns was produced late in the year.

But.. by the summer, Mauser has switched from the reinforced frame as shown in you picture to the frame with a hump. My old eyes do not see a hump.

Second, by mid-year the transition to salt bluing had taken place. The picture is of a gun produced with strawed parts and no doubt rust bluing. But inspection would confirm it.

Are you sure there is no suffix?? Would be perhaps p through r or so.

Pictures of the magazine in the gun would help. You know, of course that the spare magazine is from a later year.

So we really need to confirm the year and the serial number. Perhaps frame and receiver are from different guns.

The new user section of the board provides guidelines to new users on photographs needed to fully investigate a gun. It would be appreciated if you could review the post and provide additional photos. Or the details of your observations if photos are not available.

Best,

John

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by guns3545

But.. by the summer, Mauser has switched from the reinforced frame as shown in you picture to the frame with a hump.

John -

I am looking at the OP's picture, and my 1937 S/42, and another Mauser frame...How do you tell the three apart??? Unreinforced, reinforced, and humped???

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

John -

I am looking at the OP's picture, and my 1937 S/42, and another Mauser frame...How do you tell the three apart??? Unreinforced, reinforced, and humped???

Reinforced I don't know. Both my Mauser have the "hump".

you can see the "hump" here:

[guns3545]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

John -

I am looking at the OP's picture, and my 1937 S/42, and another Mauser frame...How do you tell the three apart??? Unreinforced, reinforced, and humped???

Richard,

This whole issue goes back to DWM and the 129 mm frame they used. Apparently this frame, at full recoil exposed the rear axle pin and there were cases of it moving and jamming the toggle train. DWM frames have noticeably thinner ears.

Mauser initially remedied the problem by lengthening just the upper part of the frame by 1 mm. Since they were using half finished DWM frames this caused the hump seen on some early K-dates. Thus, they reinforced the DWM frames and caused the hump appearance.

Then as they started using their own forged frames, they just machined the entire frame at 130mm, thus lengthening the frame, hence re-inforced as compared to the DWM frame. But the hump disappeared. This continued until early 1937.

Then, in 1937, about the same time they decided to reduce costs by going to Salt Bluing, they decided to go back to their original thought of just extending the top of the frame to prevent the axle pin from moving; and the hump returned. Maybe it saved a little weight or there was some other reason to go back to their original thought/design to solve the axle pin problem. Who knows??

So, a DWM frame with thin ears is un-reinforced.

The early Mauser P.08s using partially finished DWM frames with the top elongated causing the hump is the reinforcement with a hump. The so called Mauser Hump.

Later in 1934, Mauser built frames with the entire rear of the ears at 130 mm, i.e. a little thicker, is called the reinforced frame.

Then the return in 1937 to machining just the top of the frame to 130mm, are frames with the so called Mauser Hump. Basically this returned to the 1934 solution. This design with the hump remained in place until end of production.

So basically, ALL Mauser made guns had reinforced frames to solve the axle pin problem. But some were uniformly 130mm long (no hump) and some were 130mm long just at the top ( with hump) You can see the hump in post 23.

Sorry for the long message. Hope it helped.

John

PS: Parenthetically, Krieghoff, faced with the same directive, simply machined to 130mm thus thickening the ears and stayed with that solution throughout their entire production. That was their solution to the axle pin problem.

[sheepherder]

Thanks John!

I had noticed, at some point, that some Lugers had a noticeably thicker rear 'ear' abutment, but didn't know the significance of it. I don't have a pic of those (the 'reinforced' ear) but the rear abutment was thicker than the top/front.

My 1937 S/42 Luger has the 'unreinforced' frame. Two other Mauser Lugers I have, have the 'humped' frame. I don't have a 'reinforced' frame (130mm without hump).

[guns3545]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Thanks John!

I had noticed, at some point, that some Lugers had a noticeably thicker rear 'ear' abutment, but didn't know the significance of it. I don't have a pic of those (the 'reinforced' ear) but the rear abutment was thicker than the top/front.

Yep, you've got it.

Looking at the ears on DWM frames compared to Mauser and Krieghoff, they look skinny.

And the difference you see in the front part of the ear and the back is the 1mm to which I referred. It's enough to prevent the axle pin from working its way out at full recoil.

John

[Insayn]

Alright, now that I have had time to sit down and look over the forum I see the suffix. I initially thought it was a proof mark. As for Luftwaffe my coworker has a book and researched it in there.

[Insayn]

[Edward Tinker]

ok, the byf equals Mauser but your code should be either S/42 or 42 (I don't remember, but know its one of them), byf was in 41 and 1942.

At some point, someone put the wrong toggle back onto the wrong receiver. It could have been at war or it could easily have been after the war (after capture). Even if grandfather did not swap it on purpose, it may have happened. It is highly doubted that it would have stayed in service like that but anything is possible if swapped out by a soldier or unit armorer -

[Insayn]

That's why I inquired. I figured it was a field repair, but was unsure if all parts had matching numbers or if certain parts were made elsewhere and assembled later.. I had a WWI Colt 1911 frame matched up with a WWII slide after it was arsenaled.

[guns3545]

Originally Posted by Insayn

That's why I inquired. I figured it was a field repair, but was unsure if all parts had matching numbers or if certain parts were made elsewhere and assembled later.. I had a WWI Colt 1911 frame matched up with a WWII slide after it was arsenaled.

Rob,

Pictures are worth a thousand words.

Okay, this looks like a first variation 1937 pistol, with strawed parts, that has had the toggle train switched out with a late, 1941 or 1942 toggle train with the last two numbers of the serial number being 51. Difficult to say how or why the toggle train was switched out.

Everything else in the gun that is visible is consistent with Early 1937 production. Except the magazine whose characteristics I cannot see. But the SN clearly does not match.

I doubt that this gun saw Luftwaffe service. Records show that there was no allocation to the LW in 1937. FYI, in 1937 Krieghoff was in full production with LW contract P.08s.

We can see allocations to the Police and the Navy, very small quantities with the Army getting the vast majority of 1937 P.08 production from Mauser.

Hope this helps.

John

[DonVoigt]

I don't see anything about it that "says" Luftwaffe- did your friend explain his conclusion?

What you have today is simply a mismatched Mauser made luger; when/where/who/how it got mixed up we will never know.

Welcome to the luger puzzle forum!

[Sergio Natali]

FWIK nothing to do with LUFTWAFFE, that at the time was still satisfied with all the KRIEGHOFF production.
I's a pity that it's not completely original, nice gun anyway.

[Mac Cat]

Regardless, you have an interesting gun to explore.
The proofs on the right frame are very cool and the serial number is pretty cool - the "100" and matching "00". It's worth exploring further, even if it's not of collector value.

When you break down the gun, you will probably find more parts that are numbered. Even the grips sometimes have numbers inside of them.

Thanks for sharing your photos!

[DavidJayUden]

Remember that one of every 100 S/42 guns has the correct number of toggle. While never original again, you may be able to buy a shooter with the 00 number, switch toggles, and re-sell the shooter at no loss. Just be certain that you stay in the rust blued series.
Also, as an aside, your side plate does not appear to be on correctly.
dju

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

Also, as an aside, your side plate does not appear to be on correctly.

Yes, I saw that too. Maybe a quick re-assembly for the pic [post #7] and the tab wasn't tucked into the frame before locking it in place with the locking bolt ["takedown lever"]???

Yes. In post #6 I can see the tab outside the frame. Not good.