1921 DWM courious proofmarks

[charly239]

hallo

this came today across.....1921 DWM number match without mag....condition is fine....but look at the proof marks,what is the right one??

best regards

[charly239]

something for the eyes

[Ron Smith]

These Proofs aka Waffenamts, are found only on 1920 and 1921 production DWM military and police Lugers. Known as "Dove" and/or "Buzzard" proofs. They are found in different combinations. Eagle(Dove)over WaA4 or ArA4, and Eagle(Buzzard)over WaA4 or ArA4. Yours has two Doves and the Buzzard (on the right).

I'm not certain that anyone knows why they were of both designs, or found in different combinations. Other than to identify the individual inspectors that they were assigned to.

Ron

[George Anderson]

I believe that the stamp on the right is the Weimar firing proof and the two to the left are Reichswehr inspection stamps.

[Don M]

1921 was the transition year from the Ausrüstungsamt (ArA) to the Waffenamt (WaA). Perhaps they also changed from the buzzard to the dove. This pistol probably was produced during that transition.

[Ron Smith]

Don,

You're right, I had forgotten the term "Ausrüstungsamt". Do you know the approximate month that they began the change over? Do you have any information on why they are found intermingled? Kind of mixed and matched from what I have seen.

Ron

[charly239]

thanks a lot for your help

what is the suffix under the serial

a b or an l

regards

[charly239]

hallo again

is this a police or a military one

what´did you mean

best regards

[Ron Smith]

Yours is a military with "b" suffix. All military 1921s are no suffix, a or b suffixed. Are there any markings on front grip strap?

[charly239]

hallo

no there are no moore markings

regards

[Don M]

Ron, I recall having read something about the transition from ArA4 to WaA4 but can't remember where or anything more about it. The formation of ArA4 is discussed in Görtz & Bryans, p. 131.

George is probably correct that the right stamp is the Weimar firing proof.

[Ron Smith]

Don,

It's an Eagle over ArA4. I have 6 1921 military Lugers, 4 in the b suffix block which are marked as in the photo. They all have a variation of Eagle(Dove)over WaA4 and/or Eagle (Buzzard) over ArA4 or AyA4. If by "Weimar Firing proof" you mean the droop eagle as found on early Mauser Lugers? It is not the same.

Ron

[charly239]

hallo

what are the correct mags for those luger

wood,alu bottom,chrome mags

the tool have a proof or marker

thanks a lot

regards

[Ron Smith]

The correct magazine would be the early Imperial style crimped white sheet metal, with either a wood bottom (early issue) or aluminum bottom (later issue). The issue magazine for the Army Lugers will have the SN and suffix, the spare would have a + symbol stamped on it. Police magazines will have a 1 or 2 stamped on the base. They used whatever they had available. Holsters were reissued Imperials for the most part.

The Army contract was for approx. 10,000 1921 production Lugers. So, 1921 Army Lugers are not all that common. The magazines were often mix and match. And surplus wood bottom WWI Imperial magazines were often used.

Ron

[charly239]

is this correct that only 10000 DWM units are made for military in 1920 /21 ??



regards t.

[Ron Smith]

Yes, between 8,000 and 10,000 were procured by the military.

[Dwight Gruber]

The difference between the dove and eagle WaA4 is simply the replacement of the stempel used by the inspector. The eagle is sometimes found above ArA, and sometimes above WaA, denoting the change in the name of the inspection office. The firing proof inspector retained his e/WaA4 stamp long after the old, worn eagle inspection and acceptance stamps were replaced with the dove stamp. Eventually the firing proof stamp was replaced as well, as late production is found with all dove/WaA4 stamps .

--Dwight

[charly239]

i thing i found a rare bird

regards t.

[charly239]

hallo again

is this correct...grips arent marked with any proofs


what do you thing about the worth??

regards t.

[Ron Smith]

Thomas,

Even though they are scarce. 1920 & 1921 military Lugers haven't gained a big following among collectors. They don't have the "Romance" of WWI Imperial Lugers, nor the "Mystique" of the WWII Nazi Mauser Lugers.

I have a different view, because I have studied the Weimar Reichswehr era, and have found it to be a fascinating time in Germany's history.

If it was unit marked, the value would be enhanced somewhat. In todays slow market it is worth $1200 to $1300. In an optimistic market, maybe $1500 to $1600 on average.

Ron