O.T cutaway. please help

HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr · 04-15-2003, 05:08 PM

I have recently sold and shipped an origianl cutaway of a Swedish mauser action to USA.
The action is complete with a 4" barrel and all major parts as barrelstub, bold and recevier are all that much milled that they never can be made to be a gun.
This part is produced this way originally and have never been a gun.

I have always understood that this is classified as a NONGUN by ATF, but now have the US customs seized it and told my customer that they are going to confiscate it and destroy it.

Please help me, have I done wrong that stated that it's a nongun does ATF say it's a nongun while US customs have a differnt opinion?

Regards HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr

unspellable · 04-15-2003, 05:48 PM

I don't know about customs, but the ATF will regard the frame (lower) as being the firearm while all other parts are just parts. Was the frame sufficiently cut away to make it impossible to fire?

I would think that if the ATF says its a firearm, customs will go along with the argument.

Then, even if it does not constitute a legal firearm, it does not automatically follow that the particular customs agents involved know what they are talking about. They will want to cover their behind, and short of legal action, they are calling the shots.

Welcome to the world of red tape.

John Sabato · 04-16-2003, 10:59 AM

HÃ?Â¥kan,

What makes the determination of being a NON-GUN is whether or not the device can be made to fire a cartridge. If the receiver was capable of having different parts installed and that would permit the device to fire a cartridge then the device would still be considered a firearm by both ATF and Customs. If the receiver could not fire a cartridge no matter how many parts were replaced, then it would be a Non-gun.

In other words, for it to be considered a NON-GUN, it could not be made to fire no matter how many parts were replaced. Sorry that you may have lost the sale and the cutaway... perhaps you might petition CUSTOMS to send it back to you because it was a misunderstanding? I hope so.

Ron Wood · 04-16-2003, 11:41 AM

John,
I agree for the most part with what you stated. However, I think that unspellable has the right idea and it is the frame that is the controlled part. If a complete receiver could be placed on the frame and be capable of firing a cartridge, that is what would constitute a firearm and require a FFL to transfer. You cannot buy a frame without a FFL.

John Sabato · 04-16-2003, 12:41 PM

Hi Ron,

We are in vehement agreement <img border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" title="" src="graemlins/cussing.gif" /> but let me clarify my context a little...

In this particular case (a swedish mauser rifle cutaway) the receiver and frame would be the same part. But if we were dealing with an autopistol they would likely be different parts.

If the controlled Item (the serial numbered part) were able to allow the discharge of a cartridge by the substitution of parts, then I believe the item would be correctly classified as a firearm and not a Non-Gun.

If the serial numbered part could not be made to fire a cartridge regardless of how many parts were replaced, then I think it could correctly be classified as a Non-Gun... of course ATF and Customs inspectors would have the discretion to classify the item as they see fit and unless one is prepared for legal action and the associated costs, I doubt you will get them to change their minds.

I have regular professional exposure to both of these agencies...especially U.S. Customs (which just got renamed to be the Bureau of Customs and Border Protection under the new Department of Homeland Security) and they are a tough crowd to get to change their minds once they have made them up, but they are also reasonable when circumstances permit it.

They have to err on the side of protecting our turf from unscrupulous smugglers... and generally they do a great job... unfortunately, because of the threat of smuggling, ordinary citizens can sometimes get burned over technicalities like this situation.

Ron Wood · 04-16-2003, 12:56 PM

AAARRGGhhh! Second stupid blunder of the day. I didn't read carefully enough to see that we were talking about a rifle! Sorry John. Think I will go back to bed. Dumb..dumb..dumb..dumb...

unspellable · 04-16-2003, 01:48 PM

Oops! My mistake also. I too, made the overly quick assumption we were talking about a Parabellum. If it's a Mauser rifle, then the receiver and frame are one and the same piece.

As for the bureaucratic mind set, I discovered a long time ago that if the answer is not clear cut (In the eyes of the bureaucrat, not the poor SOB trying to get something done.) the bureaucrat invariably comes down on what he views as the side that will keep his butt covered. (In some parts of the world it takes bribery to get something through customs, maybe that ain't all bad.)

I ran into this sort of grief with a MK VI Webley. The British military declared a batch of them surplus and sold them to the Royal Irsih Constabulary who struck a line through the serial number and stamped a new one. (God knows why, the bureaucratic mindset again.) The RIC declared them surplus and they were imported into the US with ATF approval. I was in Michigan at the time where we had a "safety inspection" (Read registration.) and the Sheriff's department had kittens and fizzing fits over the serial number. I told them to write down both numbers, but that wouldn't satisfy them. I have an endless supply of stories like this, some involving customs.

PS. I changed my county of residence after I got this mess settled.

John Sabato · 04-16-2003, 03:01 PM

No problem Ron old friend, I had that kind of day yesterday!!! Today it was just your turn.

Big Norm · 05-07-2003, 06:29 PM

Don't feel bad guys. I got confused too. Swedish Mauser and 4 inch barrel lead me to think quickly that it was a P-08 too.
Big Norm

Jim Keenan · 05-18-2003, 08:52 PM

Has BATF ever made up its collective mind as to just what is the "firearm" in the case of a Luger?

At one point they said the receiver was the "firearm" because the barrel and receiver could fire even when separated from the grip piece. Then someone told them that the receiver usually did not have the whole serial number, but the grip piece did. Last I heard it was still up in the air, but most dealers record the number on the grip piece.

Meanwhile, they let Ruger number the receiver on their .22 auto pistol, since Ruger said stamping the number on the grip frame would bend it.

Confusion, anyone?

Jim

04-15-2003, 05:08 PM	#1
HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 282 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	O.T cutaway. please help I have recently sold and shipped an origianl cutaway of a Swedish mauser action to USA. The action is complete with a 4" barrel and all major parts as barrelstub, bold and recevier are all that much milled that they never can be made to be a gun. This part is produced this way originally and have never been a gun. I have always understood that this is classified as a NONGUN by ATF, but now have the US customs seized it and told my customer that they are going to confiscate it and destroy it. Please help me, have I done wrong that stated that it's a nongun does ATF say it's a nongun while US customs have a differnt opinion? Regards HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr

04-16-2003, 10:59 AM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	HÃ?Â¥kan, What makes the determination of being a NON-GUN is whether or not the device can be made to fire a cartridge. If the receiver was capable of having different parts installed and that would permit the device to fire a cartridge then the device would still be considered a firearm by both ATF and Customs. If the receiver could not fire a cartridge no matter how many parts were replaced, then it would be a Non-gun. In other words, for it to be considered a NON-GUN, it could not be made to fire no matter how many parts were replaced. Sorry that you may have lost the sale and the cutaway... perhaps you might petition CUSTOMS to send it back to you because it was a misunderstanding? I hope so. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

04-16-2003, 11:41 AM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,036 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,247 Times in 1,720 Posts	John, I agree for the most part with what you stated. However, I think that unspellable has the right idea and it is the frame that is the controlled part. If a complete receiver could be placed on the frame and be capable of firing a cartridge, that is what would constitute a firearm and require a FFL to transfer. You cannot buy a frame without a FFL. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

04-16-2003, 12:41 PM	#5
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Hi Ron, We are in vehement agreement <img border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" title="" src="graemlins/cussing.gif" /> but let me clarify my context a little... In this particular case (a swedish mauser rifle cutaway) the receiver and frame would be the same part. But if we were dealing with an autopistol they would likely be different parts. If the controlled Item (the serial numbered part) were able to allow the discharge of a cartridge by the substitution of parts, then I believe the item would be correctly classified as a firearm and not a Non-Gun. If the serial numbered part could not be made to fire a cartridge regardless of how many parts were replaced, then I think it could correctly be classified as a Non-Gun... of course ATF and Customs inspectors would have the discretion to classify the item as they see fit and unless one is prepared for legal action and the associated costs, I doubt you will get them to change their minds. I have regular professional exposure to both of these agencies...especially U.S. Customs (which just got renamed to be the Bureau of Customs and Border Protection under the new Department of Homeland Security) and they are a tough crowd to get to change their minds once they have made them up, but they are also reasonable when circumstances permit it. They have to err on the side of protecting our turf from unscrupulous smugglers... and generally they do a great job... unfortunately, because of the threat of smuggling, ordinary citizens can sometimes get burned over technicalities like this situation. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

04-16-2003, 12:56 PM	#6
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,036 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,247 Times in 1,720 Posts	AAARRGGhhh! Second stupid blunder of the day. I didn't read carefully enough to see that we were talking about a rifle! Sorry John. Think I will go back to bed. Dumb..dumb..dumb..dumb... __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

04-15-2003, 05:48 PM	#2
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	I don't know about customs, but the ATF will regard the frame (lower) as being the firearm while all other parts are just parts. Was the frame sufficiently cut away to make it impossible to fire? I would think that if the ATF says its a firearm, customs will go along with the argument. Then, even if it does not constitute a legal firearm, it does not automatically follow that the particular customs agents involved know what they are talking about. They will want to cover their behind, and short of legal action, they are calling the shots. Welcome to the world of red tape.

04-16-2003, 01:48 PM	#7
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	Oops! My mistake also. I too, made the overly quick assumption we were talking about a Parabellum. If it's a Mauser rifle, then the receiver and frame are one and the same piece. As for the bureaucratic mind set, I discovered a long time ago that if the answer is not clear cut (In the eyes of the bureaucrat, not the poor SOB trying to get something done.) the bureaucrat invariably comes down on what he views as the side that will keep his butt covered. (In some parts of the world it takes bribery to get something through customs, maybe that ain't all bad.) I ran into this sort of grief with a MK VI Webley. The British military declared a batch of them surplus and sold them to the Royal Irsih Constabulary who struck a line through the serial number and stamped a new one. (God knows why, the bureaucratic mindset again.) The RIC declared them surplus and they were imported into the US with ATF approval. I was in Michigan at the time where we had a "safety inspection" (Read registration.) and the Sheriff's department had kittens and fizzing fits over the serial number. I told them to write down both numbers, but that wouldn't satisfy them. I have an endless supply of stories like this, some involving customs. PS. I changed my county of residence after I got this mess settled.

04-16-2003, 03:01 PM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	No problem Ron old friend, I had that kind of day yesterday!!! Today it was just your turn. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-07-2003, 06:29 PM	#9
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Don't feel bad guys. I got confused too. Swedish Mauser and 4 inch barrel lead me to think quickly that it was a P-08 too. Big Norm

05-18-2003, 08:52 PM	#10
Jim Keenan User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 184 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Has BATF ever made up its collective mind as to just what is the "firearm" in the case of a Luger? At one point they said the receiver was the "firearm" because the barrel and receiver could fire even when separated from the grip piece. Then someone told them that the receiver usually did not have the whole serial number, but the grip piece did. Last I heard it was still up in the air, but most dealers record the number on the grip piece. Meanwhile, they let Ruger number the receiver on their .22 auto pistol, since Ruger said stamping the number on the grip frame would bend it. Confusion, anyone? Jim