A Belated and Sincere Thanks to Tom Armstrong

[Jimbo]

Tom A,

Reading the post on 3 recommended Luger dealers jogged my memory. I don't think I ever thanked you for refunding the money for the 1939 Mauser 42 code I bought from you last year. Thank you, that was honorable of you to give me a full refund even though a couple of weeks had passed.

For those of you who are not aware, I bought a 1939 Mauser 42 from Tom last year while he was selling part of his collection to raise funds for his rare and very valuable Navy. I was delighted to buy from him because of his sterling reputation. I knew I was getting a righteous gun, not getting ripped off. Tom sent the gun and I had a 3-day review period to let him know it was OK. He even e-mailed me to ask how the gun looked.

Well, I'd been busy. And it is two hours from my home in San Francisco to my FFL dealer in Sacramento. It was 2 weeks before I could inspect the Luger. Now, this gun was immaculate and the accompanying holster was gorgeous. But there was one terrible problem. I immediately noticed the rear toggle axle was an unstamped replacement. If there is anything Bill Munis has taught me it is that ALL military Mausers had ALL small parts stamped with the last 2 digits of the serial number ALL of the time.

Now this gun was truly mint. Not Ralph Shattuck advertised "mint that is kind of nice but more 98% than mint. This gun was HONESTLY mint, but for the dreaded replacement toggle axle.

I felt I had over-paid for the gun because that one missing part knocked this otherwise phenomenal specimen down to shooter status. I hate that! I hate that the Luger community has defined such a huge chasm in value between a gun that is mint and one that is mint but for one tiny, stupid, insignificant part. In fact, the toggle axle fit like a dream and I have every reason to believe it was a true arsenal replacement and not some GI hammer fit or collector screw up. That Luger should have been worth maybe 5% less than an all-original mint specimen, IMHO!

But I don't make the rules. And suddenly, I had a gun that technically was worth much less than I paid. Now, I still REALLY wanted this gun as it was a beautiful thing and would have been far and away the cleanest piece in my small collection. I proposed that Tom give me a refund for the balance due to the Luger's not being all-original as advertised. Well Tom being the honorable man he is said he would rather I just return the gun and he would return 100% of my money. Now I had the gun for 2 weeks. And he had every ethical right to say I had my 3-day review and failed to review in time. He had no way of knowing if I had removed the original axle and replaced it with an unstamped one in a criminal attempt to get a partial refund.

Sadly for Tom, he bought the gun from a trustworthy person who advertised it as all-matching original and never himself checked to insure that it was. So he had no way of knowing if that part was stamped or not before sending it to me.

The bottom line is, I was heartbroken giving up that gorgeous gun and wished I could keep it. I thought about it. I though about bucking the collector trend and keeping the gun at the full price I paid because I really wanted to keep it that badly, it was so purely mint.

But ultimately I went with the rules and couldn't justify paying a collector price for a "shooter" Luger, even though I disagree this gun was anything but a shooter. It was a very immaculate mint Luger and should have been valued as such.

Well Tom, this is just my very long way of saying thank you for the full refund even though it was two weeks before I performed your 3-day inspection. Thanks for being a gentleman and man of honor. Everyone should be so courteous and professional. And I hope you still have that Luger. It was a beauty!

And everything came out OK in the end because I sent that refund money (along with a good deal more!) to Doug Smith for a very nice 1937 Krieghoff that I am just thrilled with and that is the centerpiece of my small, modest collection for which I am so deeply grateful. Life is good.

And a sincer thanks to you, Tom A. for being such a gentleman. I propose a toast to your health sir! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Jimbo

[Hairy]

It looks like Tom prefers his good reputation to a few dollars. Way to go, Tom. You're high on my list of people to check with before purchasing a Luger.

[Jimbo]

To John S.

Perhaps this should be in "General" rather than military. I was thinking the 1939 42 was military, hence posting here. But I think "General" would be the more appropriate location for this post. Thank you.

Jimbo

[Pete Ebbink]

Jimbo, and others...

Great posting...Jim.

I am curious to know if others agree that the toggle pin w/o Mauser-stamped serials really makes this otherwise honest and cherry-sounding luger into a mere "shooter"...?

IMOH, I think this gun still sounds like a great collector piece, albiet missing one (1) factory orginal part. Shooter status does seem rather extreme...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Herb]

Pete, I also have a very nice 1939/42 Mauser that is matching except for the toggle hinge pin which is a mismatched replacement. The bore is excellent and it doesn't appear to have been fired extensively causing me to wonder if this was a common problem for that production run. It would be interesting to know if anyone else has seen this too on other 1939 or 39/42's.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Gentlemen, I have to agree with Jimbo on his analysis of Tom Armstrongs character. It is Sterling. He cares less about the $$ than doing what is right.

I have to disagree with his take on the pistol. Jimbo, you are ignoring history and taking a myopic view of Luger collecting. Of course that is your right and it is your money so I respect that. I just think if you find an otherwise mint pistol and the toggle pin is not marked it is not the end of the world. Now the price you pay for it is another thing but that certainly would not bother me consedering what these pistols have gone through over the years. In fact, I suspect many pistols found in prime condition. As most of you know the price of this stuff is rising every day...Why you might ask? Scarcity. Every day someone breaks down an otherwise good pistol and sells it for parts. We will come to some time in future where this demand will exceed supply. Prices will continue to rise. If you got the money don't be afraid to get em while you can. Jerry Burney

[Navy]

Jimbo, Jerry, et al:
Thanks so very much for the kind words. I learned many, many years ago at the knee of James Wingfield Armstrong II (B- 1883;D- Thanksgiving Day 1980), my wonderful Granddad, that no one can take your good name or reputation. You only give it away for the sake of a few depreciating dollars. I find it amazing how few people understand this. Look around you in business and politics and all you see, in many instances, are fast buck hucksters and ward-healing hacks who are just trying to make the payment on their excessive life style.

As a Luger collector, I am very proud of the way the hobby has bloomed; sometimes, when I recall the prices of the '60's; hell, the '80's, I wish the popularity of toggle-tops had not grown so rapidly. Oh well, infinite money chasing constrained resources...I think I snored through that lecture.

In any event, if we are going to keep this alive as a HOBBY, repeat, HOBBY, as in not an occupation, we need to have strict standards and abide by them. I try to do exactly that; if you don't, well, the word will soon get out about you.just ask that guy in Somekindacove, Texas.

Tom A.

[Edward Tinker]

Hello, I moved the topic, as suggested by Jimbo.

I am a collector, but probably not as good as one as others. I feel that a toggle pin missing its number does not make the gun into a shooter...

I will probably buy guns over the next 20 years and have trouble selling them because of this imposed handicap, but really believe that extremes cause more problems than they are worth. (I don't doubt Jimbo's feeling on this and understand his feeling of spending money on a "collector" perceived shooter... His comment of 5% makes perfect sense to me, yes many will disagree with me.

But if you used a "scale" of say;

toggle train 75% off of a collector piece
barrel not arsenal refurbished 75% off

firing pins, toggle pins, and the like 5 or 10%?

I doubt the "hobby" will ever really accept this thinking, but it is something that makes sense, to me?

Ed

[Heinz]

Toggle pin marking brings up an interesting point. The 1910 Imperial orders for marking the P08 do not require marking the toggle pin. Gortz and Bryans p 111 through 113. Jan Still shows an Erfurt with an Army test proof on the end of the toggle pin on pg 69 of Imperial Lugers but no serial number. I saw once when serial number marking on the toggle became standardized, but forget the year/period. Someone on this forum knows. I have made a habit to check for toggle pin numbers whenever I look at Lugers at a gun show. Guess what, almost all have a matching 2 digit number on the toggle and these same guns always have matching numbered magazines. I believe that this is because the boosters think the pin number is proper and when you are stamping the magazine you might as well stamp the toggle pin. I do not mean to infer that a number on the toggle pin is not correct on later lugers, particularly the one mentioned in this thread. But, it is not correct on ALL and is somewhat of an indicator of how many Lugers have been messed with in one way or another.

And I fully concur in the opinions on Herr Armstrong. Heck of a guy for such an Englisher name.

regards, Heinz

[Navy]

Gents and Ladies,
I advertised the gun as all matching. For a III Reich-era piece, as in manufactured by Mauser, that means a numbered toggle axel pin. This gun did not have one. We can quibble and discuss about what is acceptable and what was the practice, etc, etc, but the simple fact is the gun was not as I advertised it, so I felt compelled to offer a full refund.
FWIW, that pistol was purchased from me by a well known DEALER in Loisiville, KY at SOS at a slight premium above the price Jimbo paid. I'll bet it will turn up with a numbered axel pin soon.
Tom A.

[RockinWR]

Heinz,
* Reference: Your question on the P.08 rear connecting pin beginning to have the last two digits of the S/N marked upon same.
* Gortz & Bryans, "GSAM", Pgs. 131-132. "A Military & Police standard introduced in 1932".
Bob

[Dwight Gruber]

Numbered toggle pin instruction published in 1932 (G�¶rtz & Bryans, p. 131).

--Dwight

[Heinz]

Dwight and Bob, thank you both. I have flagged that page.

heinz

[Heydrich]

I wouldn’t consider a minty 1939 Mauser 42 code Luger with just an unnumbered toggle pin to be "just a shooter". No way. This is irregardless if the part is a wartime replacement or not. If you showed the firearm to your friends or family, none of them would even come close to noticing this innocuous detail. And most collectors wouldn’t either, just the sharp-eyed hawks on this board.

Of course, if this little detail on your mental landscape would be a permanent irritant, pass on it for sure. Only keep the stuff that makes you happy. Why else collect?

[Jimbo]

Hi Heydrich,

NO! I defined the pistol as being in mint condition and well worth the money Tom asked for it. Unfortunately, I don't make the rules. I am a newcomer to Luger collecting.

It is the Luger Collecting Community which determined that the absence of one tiny insignificant part knocks a third or more off the value of an otherwise mint-condition Luger. At that point it was out of my hands whether or not I wanted it. Minty 1939 42 are still available, you just have to pay the going rate.