When were loading tools issued?

marine kabar · 12-09-2004, 05:34 AM

Was it issued with the pistol or with the holster? In the real world, would you expect the loading tool to be of same vintage as the pistol or is this just something we collectors like to see?

Thanks

DougT · 12-09-2004, 06:18 AM

Just a guess, but I would suspect that the pistol was issued with the loading tool, two magazines and the holster.
DougT

marine kabar · 12-09-2004, 06:50 AM

Doug

Thanks. But would you have expected the ordnance marks to match? So, for example, would it have been likely for a W/154 tool to be in a 1937 holster to go with a DE/63 proofed 1936 pistol? I would think that other than the magazines which are serialed to the pistol, everything else just got tossed together with no thought as to what was "correct". Only we collectors worry about such things.

trigger643 · 12-09-2004, 08:09 AM

The 1937 rig I just picked up from the vet came together this way: He captured the pistol from one of a group of prisoners within the first 3 days of D-Day. He took the pistol and stuffed it in his pack (he stated it was too much of a hassle to get the guy to undo his belt and take the holster). Later he "picked up" an de2 marked holster from "somewhere" or "someone". It had an e655 tool. Then somewhere in the last sixty years it got matched up with a police mag. So, to answer your question, "yes. Only collectors seem to worry about such things as matching numbers and rigs"

Lugerdoc · 12-09-2004, 10:59 AM

To the best of my knowledge, the lugers were shipped by the manufacturer to military ordnance depots in wood or metal cases (depending on the period) and then issued to units in lots. Since they also came with a spare mag, I suspect that the waffenamped loading tools were also enclosed. Holsters on the other hand were sent to clothing depots when new and probably issued to individuals like uniforms. Once the fighting started, I would guess that most units, at least at the Batallion or Regimental level, had their own stash of recycled uniforms & holsters with tools enclosed, to issue as replacements. Perhaps a current German military vet can tells us the procedure today, as I doubt that it's changed much since WW2. TH

marine kabar · 12-09-2004, 05:19 PM

I'm trying to decide which of two loading tools I'm going to keep or would be most "correct". The de/63 tool that I bought recently or a w/154 I lucked onto last week. The pistol is a w/154 proofed "G" date but the holster is dated 1936 and I'm currently using de/63 proofed late "G" date magazines.

Greg

Edward Tinker · 12-09-2004, 06:00 PM

This is a guess, but either one.

Either one, because, unless the tool was made post war, any tool from WW1 to May 1945 would be correct.

That sounds simplistic, but going the other way, a WW1 gun brought back, would only be accurate with WW1 and newer. Now that same WW1 could have been used during Weimar and also WW2.

But, if it was me, I would match it as close as possible to the model you have. So, I believe that either is close enough, but I am sure someone will know the "closest" to yours...

Close enough because, you might have gotten the gun issued and the tool was issued a month later. I have a feeling that they would have been sent like Tom said, so I think a tool should have been marked essentially the same. But an acceptance marking, I am unsure if there might be TWO or THREE inspectors there at one time? Plus tools and guns got lost, replaced, mixed up, etc.

Ed

RockinWR · 12-10-2004, 01:12 AM

Greg,
* Ed is right in the grand scheme of things. <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" />
* We can all conjecture as to the timing and distribution scenarios which could make either correct. We're spliting hairs on what was most likely to be the issued hardware markings at an instance in time across an entire Nation for an individual soldier assigned to a unit placed in a politically driven pecking order with local peers based on Mission importance without specific official documentation. And this is not even how the hardware stayed together, was mixed in a theater of War, was GI acquired, brought-back, and was cared for by previous owners. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
* Eventually, the "rig", either original or assembled, will have to do its own talking to a prospective collector/buyer. The more a collector/seller has to explain anomalies/quirks, the more suspect the "rig" looks. Popeye says: "I yam what I yam!". The truth should be so stated.
* But, here's one thought if you pursue the hunt of our Luger insanity. Your "G" date is a "b" block and, thus, early 1935. More likely a 1934 holster and dE/154 tool would have been issued as they were contemporary in early 1935 IMHO. Intuitively, the ultimate match is a 1935 holster; but, they are so infrequently seen and are so expensive, an opportunity to acquire one rarely happens. A 1935 pistol in a 1935 holster raises no questions. Personally, I feel the 1935 holster better serves later "G' dates than your.
* Your 1936 PT and dE63 tool can make a fine match to your (future) 1936 Army P.08. It can serve your "G" date well in the interim till you wish to "upgrade/refine".
* Remember, its the hunt and the people you meet. The guns are simply props to oil the interactions.
* Comes down to: If you're happy with the combo, feel good about showing it, can speak without black/forked tongue about it, and be satisfied with what it command when you decide to pass it onto the next collector; then, you have a good match.

Respectfully,
Bob

marine kabar · 12-10-2004, 05:35 AM

You'll notice that I put the word "correct" in quotation marks. That's because I generally try to avoid that frenzy that we collectors tend to indulge in of insisting that everything match perfectly. In the real world, pistol "rigs" got issued, reissed, lost, captured...and then post war lost or sold by the vet or his kids, etc etc etc. But I knew this topic would inspire a good discussion and I really did want to know how these pieces of gear got originally issued by the German Army way back when.

For now, since my "G" date is in a 1936 holster and I had to make do with late "G" date magazines with de/63 proofs, the de/63 proofed tool is actually a better match for my rig as it is right now. I'll just put aside this latest tool with it's w/154 proofs. No doubt it'll never go down in value and one day I may need it.

Thanks to all who replied

Greg

12-09-2004, 05:34 AM	#1
marine kabar User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Powder Springs GA Posts: 108 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	When were loading tools issued? Was it issued with the pistol or with the holster? In the real world, would you expect the loading tool to be of same vintage as the pistol or is this just something we collectors like to see? Thanks

12-09-2004, 08:09 AM	#4
trigger643 User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Murfreesboro Posts: 502 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	The 1937 rig I just picked up from the vet came together this way: He captured the pistol from one of a group of prisoners within the first 3 days of D-Day. He took the pistol and stuffed it in his pack (he stated it was too much of a hassle to get the guy to undo his belt and take the holster). Later he "picked up" an de2 marked holster from "somewhere" or "someone". It had an e655 tool. Then somewhere in the last sixty years it got matched up with a police mag. So, to answer your question, "yes. Only collectors seem to worry about such things as matching numbers and rigs" __________________ "There are three reasons to own a gun: To protect yourself and your family, to hunt dangerous and delicious animals, and to keep the King of England out of your face." Ã¢?? Krusty the Clown

12-09-2004, 10:59 AM	#5
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	To the best of my knowledge, the lugers were shipped by the manufacturer to military ordnance depots in wood or metal cases (depending on the period) and then issued to units in lots. Since they also came with a spare mag, I suspect that the waffenamped loading tools were also enclosed. Holsters on the other hand were sent to clothing depots when new and probably issued to individuals like uniforms. Once the fighting started, I would guess that most units, at least at the Batallion or Regimental level, had their own stash of recycled uniforms & holsters with tools enclosed, to issue as replacements. Perhaps a current German military vet can tells us the procedure today, as I doubt that it's changed much since WW2. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

12-09-2004, 06:00 PM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,960 Thanks: 2,062 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	This is a guess, but either one. Either one, because, unless the tool was made post war, any tool from WW1 to May 1945 would be correct. That sounds simplistic, but going the other way, a WW1 gun brought back, would only be accurate with WW1 and newer. Now that same WW1 could have been used during Weimar and also WW2. But, if it was me, I would match it as close as possible to the model you have. So, I believe that either is close enough, but I am sure someone will know the "closest" to yours... Close enough because, you might have gotten the gun issued and the tool was issued a month later. I have a feeling that they would have been sent like Tom said, so I think a tool should have been marked essentially the same. But an acceptance marking, I am unsure if there might be TWO or THREE inspectors there at one time? Plus tools and guns got lost, replaced, mixed up, etc. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-09-2004, 06:18 AM	#2
DougT User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: So. Cal. Posts: 171 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Just a guess, but I would suspect that the pistol was issued with the loading tool, two magazines and the holster. DougT

12-09-2004, 06:50 AM	#3
marine kabar User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Powder Springs GA Posts: 108 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Doug Thanks. But would you have expected the ordnance marks to match? So, for example, would it have been likely for a W/154 tool to be in a 1937 holster to go with a DE/63 proofed 1936 pistol? I would think that other than the magazines which are serialed to the pistol, everything else just got tossed together with no thought as to what was "correct". Only we collectors worry about such things.

12-09-2004, 05:19 PM	#6
marine kabar User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Powder Springs GA Posts: 108 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I'm trying to decide which of two loading tools I'm going to keep or would be most "correct". The de/63 tool that I bought recently or a w/154 I lucked onto last week. The pistol is a w/154 proofed "G" date but the holster is dated 1936 and I'm currently using de/63 proofed late "G" date magazines. Greg

12-10-2004, 01:12 AM	#8
RockinWR User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: D/FW, Tx Posts: 279 Thanks: 109 Thanked 31 Times in 16 Posts	Greg, * Ed is right in the grand scheme of things. <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" /> * We can all conjecture as to the timing and distribution scenarios which could make either correct. We're spliting hairs on what was most likely to be the issued hardware markings at an instance in time across an entire Nation for an individual soldier assigned to a unit placed in a politically driven pecking order with local peers based on Mission importance without specific official documentation. And this is not even how the hardware stayed together, was mixed in a theater of War, was GI acquired, brought-back, and was cared for by previous owners. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> * Eventually, the "rig", either original or assembled, will have to do its own talking to a prospective collector/buyer. The more a collector/seller has to explain anomalies/quirks, the more suspect the "rig" looks. Popeye says: "I yam what I yam!". The truth should be so stated. * But, here's one thought if you pursue the hunt of our Luger insanity. Your "G" date is a "b" block and, thus, early 1935. More likely a 1934 holster and dE/154 tool would have been issued as they were contemporary in early 1935 IMHO. Intuitively, the ultimate match is a 1935 holster; but, they are so infrequently seen and are so expensive, an opportunity to acquire one rarely happens. A 1935 pistol in a 1935 holster raises no questions. Personally, I feel the 1935 holster better serves later "G' dates than your. * Your 1936 PT and dE63 tool can make a fine match to your (future) 1936 Army P.08. It can serve your "G" date well in the interim till you wish to "upgrade/refine". * Remember, its the hunt and the people you meet. The guns are simply props to oil the interactions. * Comes down to: If you're happy with the combo, feel good about showing it, can speak without black/forked tongue about it, and be satisfied with what it command when you decide to pass it onto the next collector; then, you have a good match. Respectfully, Bob

12-10-2004, 05:35 AM	#9
marine kabar User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Powder Springs GA Posts: 108 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	You'll notice that I put the word "correct" in quotation marks. That's because I generally try to avoid that frenzy that we collectors tend to indulge in of insisting that everything match perfectly. In the real world, pistol "rigs" got issued, reissed, lost, captured...and then post war lost or sold by the vet or his kids, etc etc etc. But I knew this topic would inspire a good discussion and I really did want to know how these pieces of gear got originally issued by the German Army way back when. For now, since my "G" date is in a 1936 holster and I had to make do with late "G" date magazines with de/63 proofs, the de/63 proofed tool is actually a better match for my rig as it is right now. I'll just put aside this latest tool with it's w/154 proofs. No doubt it'll never go down in value and one day I may need it. Thanks to all who replied Greg