Accuracy Beretta/Luger

Jim Mickelson · 10-15-2003, 04:31 PM

Several days ago there was a post regarding a Beretta shooting like a rifle and a Luger being somewhat less. Since I have a M9 Beretta and a 1918 DWM Luger that has been rebuilt after a fire I decided to see which was more accurate. Putting a Scope on the Beretta was easy. Two days in the machine shop resulted in a workable mount for the Luger. Testing at 100 yards, remember the Beretta shoots like a rifle so the test was done at rifle range. Using the same ammo in each gun, Winchester factory, I got the following results: Beretta 5 five shot groups average spread 2.38 inches. Luger 5 five shot groups average spread 2.09 inches. Yes the Beretta is a better combat gun. but one should never denegrate the accuracy of the Luger it too shoots like a Rifle if a Beretta is the rifle standard.

Edward Tinker · 10-15-2003, 05:03 PM

Ron Wood · 10-15-2003, 05:25 PM

Holy spoons! A two inch group at 100 yards. Is this an 8" Artillery Luger or your regular 4", every day, can't hit the broad side of a barn model? If 8" - good shootin', if 4" - whoda thunk it?!! And people laugh at the extended range sights on artilleries...Hah, those suckers can reach out and touch someone, regardless of barrel length.

By the way, fine shooting.

wterrell · 10-15-2003, 07:51 PM

As a frame of reference, a yard is composed of 3 feet. These three feet are composed of 12 inches for each foot.
Now let's see, if I shoot 5 times at 20 yards, that's 100 yards. And the grouping should be somewhere in the grouping of 2 inches. (Surely, a couple of those shots will be within a couple inches of each other.)(Off-hand shooting, mind you.)
I find it incredible (I'm being polite) that a person can fire a short barreled pistol at a measured 100 yards and the greatest distance between any two of the 5 shots would measure 2.09 inches, centerline to centerline.

Jim Mickelson · 10-15-2003, 09:08 PM

I know how far a 100 yards is I was a competitive shooter much of my early life. No the shooting was not of hand I used sand bags of of a poured concrete bench. I was testing the accuracy of the guns not my shooting ability. The Luger did indeed have a 4 inch bbl. while the Beretta has a 5 in bbl

lugercollector · 10-15-2003, 11:03 PM

I would agree that Lugers are exceptionally accurate...... (partially because the breech stays locked until the bullet has left the barrel)...I have witnessed some incredibly accurate long range shooting with a 4 inch bbl Luger....such as consistently hitting a small 6 inch diameter hub cap at 150 Yards...the problem is that the stock sights are mediocre.....

Jim Mickelson · 10-16-2003, 01:45 AM

I agree with you about the sights. and my eyes are no longer as sharp as I would like, that is why I went to so much trouble to install a scope on the Luger. The installation was doubly difficult because I didn't want anything hooked to or clamped on the bbl. The long eye relief 4x scope makes the holding and trigger control much easier.

hipwr223 · 10-16-2003, 07:57 AM

Interesting that Mr Tac would poke fun of one of our (US Armed forces) small arms. The British SA80 is no doubt the single largest blunder in military small arms the world has seen since the Chauchat machinegun

Roadkill · 10-16-2003, 10:02 AM

I'd love to see a picture of the scope mounted luger.

rk

Doubs · 10-16-2003, 12:23 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by tacfoley:
As a matter of little interest to most here, since I am describing a historical event, we used to take on the USAF MP's on their own range on local base, and thoroughly clean their clocks. tac<hr /></blockquote>Actually, they're SP's (Security Police) and beating them on the pistol range is no big deal. The last time I qualified with the Air Force issue sidearm (M-15 S&W revolver), an SP - one of a dozen or more qualifying that day - came down the line asking for a dollar to go into the pot... winner take all. The smug look on his face as I handed over my dollar suppressed the slight feeling of guilt I was feeling. This was at RAF Bentwaters and at a time when I was firing 15 - 20,000 rounds through my handguns each year. I fired the highest score recorded on the range for the year at that point in time... August or September, IIRC.

Doubs · 10-16-2003, 12:31 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by tacfoley:
[QUOTE] Whatever was wrong with the world's best military handgun - the M1911A1, I ask?
tac<hr /></blockquote>Good question. The short answer is: nothing.

A slightly longer answer is that the M9 was a political decision and not based on what was best for the military. As I recall, the SIG actually out performed the Berretta but a belated call for replacement parts cost tilted the decision to the M9. I suspect there was more to the decision than that and it involved politics.

saxman · 10-16-2003, 01:41 PM

Mr. Mickelson; As you can see, this board has a large population of wise guys. Thanks for the results of your experiment. You must be a heck of a shooter, even with the stable rest, to shoot those groups with military pistols.

hipwr223 · 10-16-2003, 10:55 PM

apparently the irony was lost on you Tac on my post. I was making fun of the whole thing. That is exactly why I pointed out the Chauchat in the first place. I was kinda making fun of the US and the Brits. That was the reason for the

at the end of my post. Either way, relax. I can still own lots of handguns that you used to be able to. Thats what I do for a living

hipwr223 · 10-18-2003, 06:40 PM

[/QUOTE] it goes without saying, I would never have had more than YOU have.

tac[/QB][/QUOTE]

That is true. You wouldn't

Roadkill · 10-18-2003, 07:05 PM

What's the point in this? hipwr223,tac, come on.
I can safely say I've got fewer guns than hipwr223 and the guns I do have are much less expensive than those Tac once had and I shoot worse than Jim Mickelson and Doubs and Wes has more Lugers than me . So there. I'm gonna go sit on the porch with my new ugly dog. What's a few fleas between friends?

rk

wterrell · 10-18-2003, 07:31 PM

hipwr223 makes me ask my self the age old riddle: Why are there always more horses asses in the world than there are horses.

Doubs · 10-18-2003, 07:35 PM

RK, I agree there's no point in arguing about who has "more" guns and my eyes have deteriorated to the point where you'd likely clean my clock with a handgun.

In truth, I left many good friends in England who enjoyed the shooting sports and I sincerely regret that the government has seen fit to deprive them of that pleasure. The shooting men and women I knew were more responsible than the public at large by a great margin. The shooting clubs I belonged to vetted every new applicant to be certain that they'd fit both socially and responsibly before they were extended membership.

Other than on this board I do not know Mr. Tacfoley and sometimes his wit goes over my head but I take absolutely NO pleasure from the situation he finds himself in as regards firearms. It's a lousy thing that the British government has done to their people. Private ownership of firearms is the supreme acknowledgement by government that the population is trustworthy and responsible. Individuals who don't trust their own citizens - or subjects - don't belong in government service IMO. We have more than our share of those kind in our own government.

John D. · 10-18-2003, 07:39 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by wes:
hipwr223 makes me ask my self the age old riddle: Why.....<hr /></blockquote>WHERE do you come up with this stuf!!???!!!
<img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />

I'm still LOL at your other post with the hunting story - NOW STOP - or I'll be spitting coffee all over the keyboard!!! <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

wterrell · 10-18-2003, 08:23 PM

John, my upbringing was very skimpy.

Roadkill · 10-19-2003, 09:00 AM

I don't know Tac, fleas are kinda, you know, personal. But with the aid of some booze I'm sure we'd come to an understanding. I gotta check out for a week or so, playing army for a while. Later ya'll.

rk

10-15-2003, 04:31 PM	#1
Jim Mickelson User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Montana Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Accuracy Beretta/Luger Several days ago there was a post regarding a Beretta shooting like a rifle and a Luger being somewhat less. Since I have a M9 Beretta and a 1918 DWM Luger that has been rebuilt after a fire I decided to see which was more accurate. Putting a Scope on the Beretta was easy. Two days in the machine shop resulted in a workable mount for the Luger. Testing at 100 yards, remember the Beretta shoots like a rifle so the test was done at rifle range. Using the same ammo in each gun, Winchester factory, I got the following results: Beretta 5 five shot groups average spread 2.38 inches. Luger 5 five shot groups average spread 2.09 inches. Yes the Beretta is a better combat gun. but one should never denegrate the accuracy of the Luger it too shoots like a Rifle if a Beretta is the rifle standard.

10-15-2003, 05:03 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,963 Thanks: 2,064 Thanked 4,593 Times in 2,115 Posts	__________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-15-2003, 05:25 PM	#3
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,036 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,247 Times in 1,720 Posts	Holy spoons! A two inch group at 100 yards. Is this an 8" Artillery Luger or your regular 4", every day, can't hit the broad side of a barn model? If 8" - good shootin', if 4" - whoda thunk it?!! And people laugh at the extended range sights on artilleries...Hah, those suckers can reach out and touch someone, regardless of barrel length. By the way, fine shooting. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-15-2003, 07:51 PM	#4
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	As a frame of reference, a yard is composed of 3 feet. These three feet are composed of 12 inches for each foot. Now let's see, if I shoot 5 times at 20 yards, that's 100 yards. And the grouping should be somewhere in the grouping of 2 inches. (Surely, a couple of those shots will be within a couple inches of each other.)(Off-hand shooting, mind you.) I find it incredible (I'm being polite) that a person can fire a short barreled pistol at a measured 100 yards and the greatest distance between any two of the 5 shots would measure 2.09 inches, centerline to centerline. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

10-16-2003, 12:23 PM	#10
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,736 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,767 Times in 584 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by tacfoley: <strong>As a matter of little interest to most here, since I am describing a historical event, we used to take on the USAF MP's on their own range on local base, and thoroughly clean their clocks. tac</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Actually, they're SP's (Security Police) and beating them on the pistol range is no big deal. The last time I qualified with the Air Force issue sidearm (M-15 S&W revolver), an SP - one of a dozen or more qualifying that day - came down the line asking for a dollar to go into the pot... winner take all. The smug look on his face as I handed over my dollar suppressed the slight feeling of guilt I was feeling. This was at RAF Bentwaters and at a time when I was firing 15 - 20,000 rounds through my handguns each year. I fired the highest score recorded on the range for the year at that point in time... August or September, IIRC.

10-15-2003, 09:08 PM	#5
Jim Mickelson User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Montana Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I know how far a 100 yards is I was a competitive shooter much of my early life. No the shooting was not of hand I used sand bags of of a poured concrete bench. I was testing the accuracy of the guns not my shooting ability. The Luger did indeed have a 4 inch bbl. while the Beretta has a 5 in bbl

10-15-2003, 11:03 PM	#6
lugercollector Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: canada Posts: 322 Thanks: 0 Thanked 25 Times in 15 Posts	I would agree that Lugers are exceptionally accurate...... (partially because the breech stays locked until the bullet has left the barrel)...I have witnessed some incredibly accurate long range shooting with a 4 inch bbl Luger....such as consistently hitting a small 6 inch diameter hub cap at 150 Yards...the problem is that the stock sights are mediocre.....

10-16-2003, 01:45 AM	#7
Jim Mickelson User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Montana Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I agree with you about the sights. and my eyes are no longer as sharp as I would like, that is why I went to so much trouble to install a scope on the Luger. The installation was doubly difficult because I didn't want anything hooked to or clamped on the bbl. The long eye relief 4x scope makes the holding and trigger control much easier.

10-16-2003, 07:57 AM	#8
hipwr223 User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Pa Posts: 22 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Interesting that Mr Tac would poke fun of one of our (US Armed forces) small arms. The British SA80 is no doubt the single largest blunder in military small arms the world has seen since the Chauchat machinegun

10-16-2003, 10:02 AM	#9
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,634 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	I'd love to see a picture of the scope mounted luger. rk

10-16-2003, 12:31 PM	#11
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,736 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,767 Times in 584 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by tacfoley: <strong>[QUOTE] Whatever was wrong with the world's best military handgun - the M1911A1, I ask? tac</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Good question. The short answer is: nothing. A slightly longer answer is that the M9 was a political decision and not based on what was best for the military. As I recall, the SIG actually out performed the Berretta but a belated call for replacement parts cost tilted the decision to the M9. I suspect there was more to the decision than that and it involved politics.

10-16-2003, 01:41 PM	#12
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Mr. Mickelson; As you can see, this board has a large population of wise guys. Thanks for the results of your experiment. You must be a heck of a shooter, even with the stable rest, to shoot those groups with military pistols. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

10-16-2003, 10:55 PM	#13
hipwr223 User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Pa Posts: 22 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	apparently the irony was lost on you Tac on my post. I was making fun of the whole thing. That is exactly why I pointed out the Chauchat in the first place. I was kinda making fun of the US and the Brits. That was the reason for the at the end of my post. Either way, relax. I can still own lots of handguns that you used to be able to. Thats what I do for a living

10-18-2003, 06:40 PM	#14
hipwr223 User Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Pa Posts: 22 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	[/QUOTE] it goes without saying, I would never have had more than YOU have. tac[/QB][/QUOTE] That is true. You wouldn't

10-18-2003, 07:05 PM	#15
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,634 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	What's the point in this? hipwr223,tac, come on. I can safely say I've got fewer guns than hipwr223 and the guns I do have are much less expensive than those Tac once had and I shoot worse than Jim Mickelson and Doubs and Wes has more Lugers than me . So there. I'm gonna go sit on the porch with my new ugly dog. What's a few fleas between friends? rk

10-18-2003, 07:31 PM	#16
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	hipwr223 makes me ask my self the age old riddle: Why are there always more horses asses in the world than there are horses. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

10-18-2003, 07:35 PM	#17
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,736 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,767 Times in 584 Posts	RK, I agree there's no point in arguing about who has "more" guns and my eyes have deteriorated to the point where you'd likely clean my clock with a handgun. In truth, I left many good friends in England who enjoyed the shooting sports and I sincerely regret that the government has seen fit to deprive them of that pleasure. The shooting men and women I knew were more responsible than the public at large by a great margin. The shooting clubs I belonged to vetted every new applicant to be certain that they'd fit both socially and responsibly before they were extended membership. Other than on this board I do not know Mr. Tacfoley and sometimes his wit goes over my head but I take absolutely NO pleasure from the situation he finds himself in as regards firearms. It's a lousy thing that the British government has done to their people. Private ownership of firearms is the supreme acknowledgement by government that the population is trustworthy and responsible. Individuals who don't trust their own citizens - or subjects - don't belong in government service IMO. We have more than our share of those kind in our own government.

10-18-2003, 07:39 PM	#18
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by wes: <strong>hipwr223 makes me ask my self the age old riddle: Why.....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">WHERE do you come up with this stuf!!???!!! <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" /> I'm still LOL at your other post with the hunting story - NOW STOP - or I'll be spitting coffee all over the keyboard!!! <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

10-18-2003, 08:23 PM	#19
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	John, my upbringing was very skimpy. __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

10-19-2003, 09:00 AM	#20
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,634 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	I don't know Tac, fleas are kinda, you know, personal. But with the aid of some booze I'm sure we'd come to an understanding. I gotta check out for a week or so, playing army for a while. Later ya'll. rk