Newbie - 1917 Erfurt all matching

lconnolly · 07-14-2003, 08:01 PM

I've been following the forum off an on now for some time. And the recent discussion (from March?) on whether to shoot a collector piece got me wondering just where my model fits. It's all matching and original, given to my grandfather (a doctor in the army) after it was removed from the german who he treated in the field and who subsequently tried to shoot my grandfather (or so the story goes).

Anyways, original matching number grips (no chips), single matching number clip, snail drum (I don't have immediate access to it to check the numbers), all original bluing in very good shape (unrestored and very likely unused in the last 80 years, no rust or pitting).

Original holster in very good shape, marked:

F.Shultz
Offenbachym
1916

(2nd last letter of 2nd line is my best guess). Take-down tool intact. The holster also has a hand-written note from my grandfather on white medical tape that says something to the effect that 'this gun is always loaded' (the note's pretty hard to read now).

I had thought that Erfurts weren't the most desirable, but given the matching numbers and mostly complete set of 'stuff' (except a 2nd clip?) I was wondering if I should consider this a collector piece or something less.

Frank · 07-14-2003, 08:09 PM

Luke, hell, errr, heck yes it's a collectable. If for no other reason the story. Some collect Erfurts exclusively!! If it were mine I wouldn't shoot it!! That's just my opinion!

lconnolly · 07-14-2003, 08:49 PM

Thanks for the info Frank.

This falls into the "Antiques Roadshow" category: I'll never sell it, but I wonder what it's worth...?

Luke

Doubs · 07-14-2003, 08:52 PM

I'm with Frank on this. I LIKE Erfurt Lugers and the personal history attached to it would make it a non-shooter for me even if it weren't in such nice condition. I hope the pistol and the story remain in your family for generations to come.

Dwight Gruber · 07-14-2003, 09:14 PM

Luke,

Mark me down as another Erfurt-o-phile.

Remote-guessing of value is always a sketchy thing, post pictures if at all possible--overall shots of the gun for condition, holster with details, magazine with detail of mag bottom.

The snail drum mag is original to Artilleries, but there's nothing that says one couldn't have migrated. Drum magazines are commonly seen for $1k and up.

It sounds like you have a terrific collection-worthy rig, with the addition of a personal family connection. One could be envious.

--Dwight

lconnolly · 07-14-2003, 09:30 PM

Thanks Dwight,

I suspect the drum isn't matching. For the rest of the rig I'll try to take some pictures (with attention to what you've pointed out) over the next few days and post them (although I may not get to this until the weekend).

Frank · 07-15-2003, 10:18 AM

Luke, the value of your Luger depends on three things!! As a friend of mine would say these are 1) Condition, 2) Condition and 3) Condition.

Of course the value also depends on the rarity and the matching of all parts, including the magazine. Photos showing the condition, wear, or the lack of it will be just dandy.

I would be really surprised if the serial number of the Trommel would match the Erfurt!! And if it did, it would be a real coincidence!!

kidvett · 07-15-2003, 05:33 PM

Luke,

I'd like to see those PICS...I'm in the ERFURT bunch too...

kidvett

lconnolly · 07-16-2003, 07:35 AM

...I'll upload some pics later today...

Luke

lconnolly · 07-17-2003, 08:47 AM

Sorry for the delay in uploading. At some point in the past in the name of efficiency I removed the frames from my view of the forum, and in doing so lost my link to upload pics. Then I had to reduce the image size...

photo thumbnailed by Admin-JS, you can see the full size photo by clicking on the thumbnail image.

Here's the first of them

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/LukeLuger1.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/LukeLuger1.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

John Sabato · 07-17-2003, 09:59 AM

For everyone's convenience, the link to the Lugerforum.com homepage is located at the bottom of every discussion page for restoration of your frames...and recovering the links in the left frame.

There is also a new undocumented feature... if you edit your post and replace the IMG between the UBB tags with the word "thumb" then your image will automatically be thumbnailed and the full image is available by clicking on the thumbnail.

lconnolly · 07-17-2003, 12:58 PM

Thanks John,

Some additional pics (hopefully following your instructions):

Magazine Bottom (Dwight: not sure if you're interested in this or the trommel - which I don't have immediate access to):

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/MagBtmDetail-cropped.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/MagBtmDetail-cropped.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Top Image
<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/LugerTop-Cropped.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/LugerTop-Cropped.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

And the holster. You can see the name and date stamp above the clasp, and the original WWI medical tape with the near-impossible to read note.

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/LugerHolster1.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/LugerHolster1.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

What does everyone think?

Luke

Edward Tinker · 07-17-2003, 01:15 PM

They look like nice original pieces to me Luke!!

Always possible it has been reblued, more pictures can clear that up.

Lets talk about low values, then you can go from there, checking e-bay can give you guesses, but lets say, if all stitching is intact on the holster, they go from $85-$150, loading tool, depending on how thye are marked $45-$85 (and up), pistol, at least $500, (shooters go for that), probably closer to $750, depending on what Frank said, Condition, condition, etc.

Oh and I like Erfurts too, don't have a nice rep piece yet, working on getting one from a friend of mind,

Ed

John Sabato · 07-17-2003, 01:30 PM

Real nice pieces Luke... but on examination of the magazine bottom full size I can see that the magazine has been re-numbered to match the gun... the original number is still there on the wood and a "7" is clearly visible between the "3" and the "0" only lighter.

Here is an enhanced and enlarged photo both in natural and negative color that show the images of the original mag number...

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Over-stampedMagBottom.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Over-stampedMagBottom.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

lconnolly · 07-17-2003, 01:41 PM

I saw that too on the image (never saw it up close before). I can't imagine that happened on this side of the Atlantic although I can't rule out anything (...the path of ownership the the best of my knowledge was German - grandfather - greatgrandfather - grandfather - father - me).

Would this have been re-stamped as a replacement for one in the field?

Luke

Frank · 07-17-2003, 02:30 PM

Hi Luke!! The photo of the top just looks wrong to me. I'm going to guess it's a bad photo. The side view looks like it's a nice pistol, about 90%, plus. The magazine has been renumbered, but when and by whom, who knows. I would value the Luger and magazine at $900, the holster at $250, the tool at $40, if it has an Erfurt Mark, maybe $50 and the Trommel at $1000. My guess for the whole mess, somewhere around $2200, or so. If I guessed too low on the finish, then it's more and if the the pistol has been refinished, then I'm $400 to $500 too high.

Anyway, this should give you a decent idea. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Doubs · 07-17-2003, 02:36 PM

I did a little work on the picture of the Luger and hope you can see a bit more detail in the two images I'm posting.

lconnolly · 07-17-2003, 03:41 PM

Wow,

You guys are too much! Thanks for the graphics expertise Doubs!

The thumbnail of the top pic does look poor (I suspect due to the reduction process I used - the originals pics at ~650 kB), but if you click on the link to see the full image, it's a better representation.

Now that I've figured out how to reduce the jpegs and upload the images, I can redo or concentrate on anything that would help (I'm amazed at how poor my close-up photographic skills are ... Devil's Tower looks great with this camera!).

Please let me know if it would help to take more pictures for upload or email.

As per my original note, this gun saw action in WWI, and has been in the family since then. It may have seen use since WWI, but if so I stongly suspect it was limited. I have no idea what the story behind the re-stamped magazine is - anyone who would died at least 50 years ago. However to the best of my knowledge and belief it's still the original finish & condition.

Luke

Doubs · 07-17-2003, 04:09 PM

Your skills with the camera aren't as poor as you think! Actually, the pictures are pretty good and it just takes a little tweaking to pull lots of detail. You have a VERY nice Erfurt Luger and the holster appears to be in excellent condition too. VERY nice, indeed.

Jim Keenan · 07-17-2003, 09:02 PM

Offenbach is on the Main (pronounced "mine") river, and its full name is Offenbach am Main or Offenbach on the Main. The holster marking is the abbreviated form "OFFENBACH A/M" with the second "A" (for "am") as a sort of superscript form above the slant sign.

The name written that way would normally mean there is another Offenbach, but I don't know of any.

Jim

07-14-2003, 08:01 PM	#1
lconnolly User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Newbie - 1917 Erfurt all matching I've been following the forum off an on now for some time. And the recent discussion (from March?) on whether to shoot a collector piece got me wondering just where my model fits. It's all matching and original, given to my grandfather (a doctor in the army) after it was removed from the german who he treated in the field and who subsequently tried to shoot my grandfather (or so the story goes). Anyways, original matching number grips (no chips), single matching number clip, snail drum (I don't have immediate access to it to check the numbers), all original bluing in very good shape (unrestored and very likely unused in the last 80 years, no rust or pitting). Original holster in very good shape, marked: F.Shultz Offenbachym 1916 (2nd last letter of 2nd line is my best guess). Take-down tool intact. The holster also has a hand-written note from my grandfather on white medical tape that says something to the effect that 'this gun is always loaded' (the note's pretty hard to read now). I had thought that Erfurts weren't the most desirable, but given the matching numbers and mostly complete set of 'stuff' (except a 2nd clip?) I was wondering if I should consider this a collector piece or something less.

07-17-2003, 09:59 AM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	For everyone's convenience, the link to the Lugerforum.com homepage is located at the bottom of every discussion page for restoration of your frames...and recovering the links in the left frame. There is also a new undocumented feature... if you edit your post and replace the IMG between the UBB tags with the word "thumb" then your image will automatically be thumbnailed and the full image is available by clicking on the thumbnail. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-17-2003, 01:15 PM	#13
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	They look like nice original pieces to me Luke!! Always possible it has been reblued, more pictures can clear that up. Lets talk about low values, then you can go from there, checking e-bay can give you guesses, but lets say, if all stitching is intact on the holster, they go from $85-$150, loading tool, depending on how thye are marked $45-$85 (and up), pistol, at least $500, (shooters go for that), probably closer to $750, depending on what Frank said, Condition, condition, etc. Oh and I like Erfurts too, don't have a nice rep piece yet, working on getting one from a friend of mind, Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-17-2003, 01:30 PM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Real nice pieces Luke... but on examination of the magazine bottom full size I can see that the magazine has been re-numbered to match the gun... the original number is still there on the wood and a "7" is clearly visible between the "3" and the "0" only lighter. Here is an enhanced and enlarged photo both in natural and negative color that show the images of the original mag number... <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Over-stampedMagBottom.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Over-stampedMagBottom.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-14-2003, 08:09 PM	#2
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 164 Times in 87 Posts	Luke, hell, errr, heck yes it's a collectable. If for no other reason the story. Some collect Erfurts exclusively!! If it were mine I wouldn't shoot it!! That's just my opinion!

07-14-2003, 08:49 PM	#3
lconnolly User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for the info Frank. This falls into the "Antiques Roadshow" category: I'll never sell it, but I wonder what it's worth...? Luke

07-14-2003, 08:52 PM	#4
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,736 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,769 Times in 586 Posts	I'm with Frank on this. I LIKE Erfurt Lugers and the personal history attached to it would make it a non-shooter for me even if it weren't in such nice condition. I hope the pistol and the story remain in your family for generations to come.

07-14-2003, 09:14 PM	#5
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Luke, Mark me down as another Erfurt-o-phile. Remote-guessing of value is always a sketchy thing, post pictures if at all possible--overall shots of the gun for condition, holster with details, magazine with detail of mag bottom. The snail drum mag is original to Artilleries, but there's nothing that says one couldn't have migrated. Drum magazines are commonly seen for $1k and up. It sounds like you have a terrific collection-worthy rig, with the addition of a personal family connection. One could be envious. --Dwight

07-14-2003, 09:30 PM	#6
lconnolly User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Dwight, I suspect the drum isn't matching. For the rest of the rig I'll try to take some pictures (with attention to what you've pointed out) over the next few days and post them (although I may not get to this until the weekend).

07-15-2003, 10:18 AM	#7
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 164 Times in 87 Posts	Luke, the value of your Luger depends on three things!! As a friend of mine would say these are 1) Condition, 2) Condition and 3) Condition. Of course the value also depends on the rarity and the matching of all parts, including the magazine. Photos showing the condition, wear, or the lack of it will be just dandy. I would be really surprised if the serial number of the Trommel would match the Erfurt!! And if it did, it would be a real coincidence!!

07-15-2003, 05:33 PM	#8
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Luke, I'd like to see those PICS...I'm in the ERFURT bunch too... kidvett

07-16-2003, 07:35 AM	#9
lconnolly User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	...I'll upload some pics later today... Luke

07-17-2003, 08:47 AM	#10
lconnolly User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Sorry for the delay in uploading. At some point in the past in the name of efficiency I removed the frames from my view of the forum, and in doing so lost my link to upload pics. Then I had to reduce the image size... photo thumbnailed by Admin-JS, you can see the full size photo by clicking on the thumbnail image. Here's the first of them <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/LukeLuger1.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/LukeLuger1.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

07-17-2003, 12:58 PM	#12
lconnolly User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks John, Some additional pics (hopefully following your instructions): Magazine Bottom (Dwight: not sure if you're interested in this or the trommel - which I don't have immediate access to): <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/MagBtmDetail-cropped.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/MagBtmDetail-cropped.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> Top Image <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/LugerTop-Cropped.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/LugerTop-Cropped.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> And the holster. You can see the name and date stamp above the clasp, and the original WWI medical tape with the near-impossible to read note. <a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/LugerHolster1.JPG" target="_fullview"><img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/LugerHolster1.JPG" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a> What does everyone think? Luke

07-17-2003, 01:41 PM	#15
lconnolly User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I saw that too on the image (never saw it up close before). I can't imagine that happened on this side of the Atlantic although I can't rule out anything (...the path of ownership the the best of my knowledge was German - grandfather - greatgrandfather - grandfather - father - me). Would this have been re-stamped as a replacement for one in the field? Luke

07-17-2003, 02:30 PM	#16
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 164 Times in 87 Posts	Hi Luke!! The photo of the top just looks wrong to me. I'm going to guess it's a bad photo. The side view looks like it's a nice pistol, about 90%, plus. The magazine has been renumbered, but when and by whom, who knows. I would value the Luger and magazine at $900, the holster at $250, the tool at $40, if it has an Erfurt Mark, maybe $50 and the Trommel at $1000. My guess for the whole mess, somewhere around $2200, or so. If I guessed too low on the finish, then it's more and if the the pistol has been refinished, then I'm $400 to $500 too high. Anyway, this should give you a decent idea. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

07-17-2003, 02:36 PM	#17
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,736 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,769 Times in 586 Posts	I did a little work on the picture of the Luger and hope you can see a bit more detail in the two images I'm posting.

07-17-2003, 03:41 PM	#18
lconnolly User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 15 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Wow, You guys are too much! Thanks for the graphics expertise Doubs! The thumbnail of the top pic does look poor (I suspect due to the reduction process I used - the originals pics at ~650 kB), but if you click on the link to see the full image, it's a better representation. Now that I've figured out how to reduce the jpegs and upload the images, I can redo or concentrate on anything that would help (I'm amazed at how poor my close-up photographic skills are ... Devil's Tower looks great with this camera!). Please let me know if it would help to take more pictures for upload or email. As per my original note, this gun saw action in WWI, and has been in the family since then. It may have seen use since WWI, but if so I stongly suspect it was limited. I have no idea what the story behind the re-stamped magazine is - anyone who would died at least 50 years ago. However to the best of my knowledge and belief it's still the original finish & condition. Luke

07-17-2003, 04:09 PM	#19
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,736 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,769 Times in 586 Posts	Your skills with the camera aren't as poor as you think! Actually, the pictures are pretty good and it just takes a little tweaking to pull lots of detail. You have a VERY nice Erfurt Luger and the holster appears to be in excellent condition too. VERY nice, indeed.

07-17-2003, 09:02 PM	#20
Jim Keenan User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 184 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Offenbach is on the Main (pronounced "mine") river, and its full name is Offenbach am Main or Offenbach on the Main. The holster marking is the abbreviated form "OFFENBACH A/M" with the second "A" (for "am") as a sort of superscript form above the slant sign. The name written that way would normally mean there is another Offenbach, but I don't know of any. Jim