Captured Luger question

paulkeats · 03-01-2003, 05:44 PM

I have a 7.65mm 1914 Luger #5695 with all matching serial numbers in about 90% condition. Bullets have been left in the magazine for many years and the spring pressure has broken the wooden base. The gun is operable with replacement magazine.

I have the original Army certificate authorizing T/Sgt Erwin M. Anderson, 33196252, to transport the pistol back to the States. Signed by 1st Lt. Paul A. Crouch, SigC, 78th Signal Company, dtd 20 November, 1945. It is an Erfurt and the following markings are on the face of the grip:

FgD. 41.19.

The shoulder stock attachment is still on the back of the grip. Any comments?

lodicollector · 03-02-2003, 02:16 AM

What comments are you looking for? Value? future value?

Lugerdoc · 03-02-2003, 09:48 AM

Paul K, Are you sure that the calibre of your PO8 is 7.65? With the chamber date and grip strap marking, I would expect it to be in the miliary 9mm. I once also had a 1915 that had a matching numbered 7.65mm barrel, but these must have been redone for the commerical market post WW1. Tom H.

paulkeats · 03-02-2003, 01:07 PM

This pistol is definitely 7.65MM and there was .30 Cal. Luger ammo (Western) in the magazine when I got it. The gun itself is marked 7.75.
Paul

paulkeats · 03-02-2003, 01:12 PM

I just don't know much about Lugers. For years I have been into Walthers and Colts with an occasional S&W thrown in. I do love history and, finding a Luger this old was a thrill. I would have thought the rarer 30. cal would be more valuable but a number of folks have told me not so because 9MM is more desireable and ammo is much easier to come by. I didn't think this gun had unusual value but I just wanted to hear from the experts.
Paul

paulkeats · 03-02-2003, 01:13 PM

Pardon me...I meant to say the gun is marked 7.65mm.

Dwight Gruber · 03-02-2003, 02:11 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by paulkeats:
I would have thought the rarer 30. cal would be more valuable but a number of folks have told me not so because 9MM is more desireable and ammo is much easier to come by.<hr /></blockquote>Paul,

Unlike many (perhaps most) older, collectible pistols, the caliber of a Luger is not usually a variation which is a prime determiner of value. It is, however, one variable used in identifying a particular Luger, which may ultimately have a bearing on its value.

The "desirablilty" of 9mm which you invoke above is strictly in regards to shooting. Yes, 9mm is -much- more easily available, and much less expensive, than 7.65. There are, however, a number of shooters who prefer 7.65 because it is purportedly more accurate. To each, his own.

The fact is, there are quite a few Lugers whose value is such that one would not -want- to shoot it, for fear of breaking a serial-numbered part and thus reducing its value to a collector by a substantial and significant amount.

It sounds as though you have a military Luger which was rebarrelled to 7.65mm for commercial sale/use after WWI. The Treaty of Versailles mostly prohibited Germans from having guns of a military caliber, so this rebarerelling was a common occurrance.

Does your Luger have a date stamped atop the receiver? All military guns do, but sometimes these were ground off during the conversion to a commercial piece . If yours is missing it is an indication that you Luger has been refinished, as well.

The inter-war period provides the most variety in Luger markings and variations, and many collectors specialize in this period because of it.

The letters and numbers stamped on the grip strap are called a "unit mark", and give your Luger an historical provenance. These denote the actual military unit to which this gun was assigned. Regrettably I am not versed in interpreting these marks, but many others on this Forum are, and I'm sure that someone will translate it. It will be crucial to know if the letters are Roman or cursive. Once the unit is known, you can do research to find out the locations and battles in which this weapon might have participated.

I've digressed a little from the initial topic here, I guess it is an indication of the interest a Luger like yours holds. Your Luger is worth much more than a simple 9mm/7.65mm conversation, I hope it provides you with a great deal of pleadure.

--Dwight

paulkeats · 03-02-2003, 08:02 PM

The date stamped on the receiver is 1914.
The unit information letters are Roman, not cursive. Thanks for the feedback.
Paul Keats

03-01-2003, 05:44 PM	#1
paulkeats User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Captured Luger question I have a 7.65mm 1914 Luger #5695 with all matching serial numbers in about 90% condition. Bullets have been left in the magazine for many years and the spring pressure has broken the wooden base. The gun is operable with replacement magazine. I have the original Army certificate authorizing T/Sgt Erwin M. Anderson, 33196252, to transport the pistol back to the States. Signed by 1st Lt. Paul A. Crouch, SigC, 78th Signal Company, dtd 20 November, 1945. It is an Erfurt and the following markings are on the face of the grip: FgD. 41.19. The shoulder stock attachment is still on the back of the grip. Any comments? __________________ Paul Keats

03-02-2003, 09:48 AM	#3
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 737 Times in 484 Posts	Paul K, Are you sure that the calibre of your PO8 is 7.65? With the chamber date and grip strap marking, I would expect it to be in the miliary 9mm. I once also had a 1915 that had a matching numbered 7.65mm barrel, but these must have been redone for the commerical market post WW1. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

03-02-2003, 01:07 PM	#4
paulkeats User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	This pistol is definitely 7.65MM and there was .30 Cal. Luger ammo (Western) in the magazine when I got it. The gun itself is marked 7.75. Paul __________________ Paul Keats

03-02-2003, 01:13 PM	#6
paulkeats User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pardon me...I meant to say the gun is marked 7.65mm. __________________ Paul Keats

03-02-2003, 02:11 PM	#7
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by paulkeats: <strong>I would have thought the rarer 30. cal would be more valuable but a number of folks have told me not so because 9MM is more desireable and ammo is much easier to come by.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Paul, Unlike many (perhaps most) older, collectible pistols, the caliber of a Luger is not usually a variation which is a prime determiner of value. It is, however, one variable used in identifying a particular Luger, which may ultimately have a bearing on its value. The "desirablilty" of 9mm which you invoke above is strictly in regards to shooting. Yes, 9mm is -much- more easily available, and much less expensive, than 7.65. There are, however, a number of shooters who prefer 7.65 because it is purportedly more accurate. To each, his own. The fact is, there are quite a few Lugers whose value is such that one would not -want- to shoot it, for fear of breaking a serial-numbered part and thus reducing its value to a collector by a substantial and significant amount. It sounds as though you have a military Luger which was rebarrelled to 7.65mm for commercial sale/use after WWI. The Treaty of Versailles mostly prohibited Germans from having guns of a military caliber, so this rebarerelling was a common occurrance. Does your Luger have a date stamped atop the receiver? All military guns do, but sometimes these were ground off during the conversion to a commercial piece . If yours is missing it is an indication that you Luger has been refinished, as well. The inter-war period provides the most variety in Luger markings and variations, and many collectors specialize in this period because of it. The letters and numbers stamped on the grip strap are called a "unit mark", and give your Luger an historical provenance. These denote the actual military unit to which this gun was assigned. Regrettably I am not versed in interpreting these marks, but many others on this Forum are, and I'm sure that someone will translate it. It will be crucial to know if the letters are Roman or cursive. Once the unit is known, you can do research to find out the locations and battles in which this weapon might have participated. I've digressed a little from the initial topic here, I guess it is an indication of the interest a Luger like yours holds. Your Luger is worth much more than a simple 9mm/7.65mm conversation, I hope it provides you with a great deal of pleadure. --Dwight

03-02-2003, 02:16 AM	#2
lodicollector New User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: lodi, ca Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	What comments are you looking for? Value? future value?

03-02-2003, 01:12 PM	#5
paulkeats User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I just don't know much about Lugers. For years I have been into Walthers and Colts with an occasional S&W thrown in. I do love history and, finding a Luger this old was a thrill. I would have thought the rarer 30. cal would be more valuable but a number of folks have told me not so because 9MM is more desireable and ammo is much easier to come by. I didn't think this gun had unusual value but I just wanted to hear from the experts. Paul __________________ Paul Keats

03-02-2003, 08:02 PM	#8
paulkeats User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The date stamped on the receiver is 1914. The unit information letters are Roman, not cursive. Thanks for the feedback. Paul Keats __________________ Paul Keats