American Eagle (Test Luger) Out-of Range

[RAHamilton]

Gentlemen:

I have recently purchased this AE, which demonstrates the characteristics perfectly for the out-of-range test eagles. You'll notice from the photos that it is not stamped "Germany", has the second type safety lever, and the takedown lever is stamped on the face (left side). Additionally, it does have the "flaming bomb" stamp underneath, or on the underside (hidden unless disassembled) of the barrel strap.

One interesting feature of this AE is that there is a small 1/8 inch hole drilled and tapped in the rear grip strap. The photos should show this quite clearly. I'm not sure when, why, or the specific reasoning behind this modification other than it could possibly been done to accommodate a stock lug of some type to make shoulder stock attachment possible. Any thoughts, or have any of you ever seen this feature on any other early lugers without a stock lug?

The only other observation I've ascertained is that the front sight blade has had a few MM'S taken off.

Ron Wood: I'm not sure if this AE Luger is one of those you have recently received and not yet added to your data base, but the SN # 7204 does not appear on your current list.

Dwight Gruber: This is another for your research project. You'll notice from the photos that it is not stamped "Germany", has the type II safety lever, and the takedown lever is marked on the face (left side). If you need any other information, please let me know.

Any and all comments are certainly welcome and appreciated.

Best Regards,
Bob

[RAHamilton]

Gentlemen:

Here are some additional photos of the American Eagle from my previous post. Ed, I'm not certain how to add these to the original post as the restrictions of 8 photos doesn't allow images beyond that number. Is there a simple way to add additional photos to my original thread?

Also, I should have mentioned that this AE is all matching inside and out including the grips and is in the white as one would expect. If any of you have questions, please let me know.

Thanks,
Bob

[John Sabato]

Great job on the photos Bob!

[Edward Tinker]

Bob, as you figured out via John, you can add to a post, just like any billy-bob smith and thus add more pictures! {{or witty comments}}

Ed

[Dwight Gruber]

Bob,

A very nice Test Eagle, and between your description and the photos my survey is satisfied, thanks very much.

--Dwight

[Ron Wood]

Bob,
I have heard of two other Lugers, both 1900s, that had a hole drilled in the rear gripstrap. I never did get a serial number on either one of them, so this might be one. The explanation that went with one of them was that it was for a detachable stock. It wasn't clear if it was a "factory" experimental stock or a gunsmith modification. I believe that Ralph Shattuck had one some years back, and he thought it was for an experimental stock. I will kick around my notes but I am not optimistic I will find anything since a lot of them are still in storage.

That is a very nice looking AE and it IS an addition to my database! Thank you! I had 7203 but not 7204. Wish I could tell you who has, or had, 7203 but unfortunately that information was not available.

[RAHamilton]

Ron:

Thanks for your comments and thoughts regarding the 1/8 inch hole in the rear gripstrap. I couldn't think of any other logical explanation for this modification other than that you have afforded. This particular AE is in relatively good condition, but the bore is dark. It does, however, still show good land and grooves.

Dwight:

Hopefully, your and Ron's data collection will help all of us better understand these interesting variations. With time, your and Ron's efforts will lend some valuable insights and help to unravel some of the mysteries that surround the American Eagle (test) Lugers. Thanks to both of you!!

Best Regards,
Bob

[Navy]

IIRC,
Fellow Navy cabal member Leo Lavalle has a 1902 fat barrel with the same hole in the grip strap.

Tom A.

[luger11]

Tom .you are correct. I did send the pistol out to Sam Constanzo for evaluation. His comment was that the hole was for any early version of the Behnke- Thiemann Shoulder stock and he had seen it in the past. Unfortunitly I can not send a picture, as the pistol has been sold.
Leo

[Vlim]

Nice,

I believe Mr. Shattucks 45 Carabine has a similar stock lug attachment. Thought it was a pinned construction, but it now appears to be a screw-on affair. Interesting.

[Ron Wood]

The .45 Carbine stock lug is dovetailed and pinned.

Since I have never owned one, I can't say for sure, but I do not believe the Benke-Thiemann rig required any modification of the Luger. It was attached in the same manner as the Ideal shoulder stock holster, with the grip plates. The main difference being that the grips of the Ideal rig were separate pieces and the Benke-Thiemann grips are an integral part of the apparatus.

Perhaps The very early examples of the Benke rig did require the tapped hole in the grip strap, as Mr. Costanzo stated, and the improvements made by Thiemann eliminated this requirement.

[Pete Ebbink]

Does anyone know how the Gormann-Grunow (spelling???) stock attached ?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Ron Wood]

Pete,
The Gomann-Grunow stock was patented in 1942 and attached to a standard stock lug.

[John Sabato]

Does anyone have a photo of this Gormann-Grunow stock... I thought I had photos of all production type Luger stocks, but this is a new one on me

Also another probing question... has anyone ever measured the threads in these drilled and tapped Luger frames? are they identical? Are they metric or English? If they were made as early as the models they have been observed on, wouldn't they be of the english type like the grip screws and not metric?

[Vlim]

Ron,

As I don't want to infringe any copyright on Mr. Shattucks page, I'll just point towards a picture on his site:

http://gmund.rennlist.com/luger/tn_21.jpg

This shows the stock-lug attachment on the grip, which shows signs of being screwed, rather than being pinned. Note the small indentations on the sides of the round 'attaching device'. The stock itself will indeed be dovetailed into the stock-lug attachment, but the attachment itself can be screwed onto the grip and I think it is in this case.

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi John S.,

In C. Kenyon's 2nd. book, L-TMNP, on pages 132 and 133 is a good text description and a photo of a luger with the Gomann-Grunow telescoping shoulder stock. Let me know if you do not have the book...it not I can scan these pages and email to you...since the book still has a copyright...thought it best not to post on the Forum.

Hi Ron W.,

Kenyon says in the book, referenced above, that this G-G stock was patented in Germany in 1924 and that he knew of only two specimens (at the time of his book publishing).

I remembered seeing this book-photo somewhere, but could not remember...so spent a better part of last evening going through the Ebbink-library until I found it. You are correct, it looks like it attaches to a standard stock lug on the back of a luger. Maybe some one came up with a custom stock, similar to the G-G sotck, that needed to be drilled/tapped to a rear grip strap if a gun did not have a stock lug...??? Just a WAG...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[Ron Wood]

Pete,
42-24, chalk it up to typing dyslexia (or advancing years). Sorry about the transposition. I have got to be more careful!

Gerben,
The lug is actually dovetailed into the rear gripstrap and then further secured with a stud. I had the opportunity to examine the carbine and dismantle it. It appeared to me that the round stud in the lug was a pin, but without an x-ray examination of the cross-section I cannot say for certain that it is a peened rivet or a blind screw. You could very well be right that it is a screw that has been faced off after securing the lug.

[John Sabato]

Pete, thanks for the offer, but I have been rebuilding my Luger library over the last year or so and I do have both of Kenyon's books. I remember seeing this type of stock (G-G) now, but had disassociated the name. The photo is clear that this stock attaches to a standard stock lug and does not use a threaded hole... so the mystery continues.

[Vlim]

Ron,

Nice to hear you got to fondle that beauty!