Missing Halos

Geo99 · 10-27-2013, 01:11 AM

I know this topic has probably been beat to death, but I have searched the archives and not found an answer to this question:

Is a lack of any halo on the barrel a 100% reliable indicator that a rust-blued Luger gun is NOT original finish?
(especially 1936-37 rust blue Mausers)?

Say I have a gun that is completely righteous and shows no other signs of being refinished, and has a strong rust patina under the blue, but no visible halo.
Would you ignore the missing barrel SN halo?
Or would you say it must be reblued (no matter how good it looks otherwise)?

- Geo

mrerick · 10-27-2013, 09:25 AM

George, you should see a halo on a barrel serial number stamped after the barrel was rust blued.

1937, in particular, was a time of transition as the factory shifted over to salt blued guns. The shift was gradual, and could possibly have mixed parts from different processes.

I'm not near my reference books right now, so can't verify things. What is the serial number and chamber date?

DavidJayUden · 10-27-2013, 09:35 AM

and has a strong rust patina under the blue

It would seem to me that if you see any bluing over rust, scratches, etc, it is a certain sign that it has been reblued.
For me the real question is "so what?" If a gun was reblued back during the war years by the German armorers, and everything else is righteous, is it a shooter? Certainly not in my book.

dju

alvin · 10-27-2013, 11:41 AM

Why not post some pictures, so we can take a look to see what's going on?

Geo99 · 10-27-2013, 03:01 PM

Alvin - There is a gun I am thinking about, but pictures are not possible. I was speaking in general terms, to learn if any and all rust blued Lugers without the barrel halo should be avoided.

David - I may have used the wrong terminology. By "rust patina under the blue" I meant the red/rust color you can see under an original blued finish in strong direct light, like sunlight or a maglite. I agree with you but I did not mean blue over rust pits or scratches.

By "so what" I take it to mean you do not care if a gun appears 100% original but is missing the barrel halo on the SN? As long as it wasn't reblued recently?

- Geo

alvin · 10-27-2013, 03:32 PM

Regarding "so what" question, I think that depends on context.. I have a converted Spanish semi-auto MM-31. The thing was welded in the conversion process and its frame was reblued. The "so what" statement applies. Well, at least I accepted it OK from the seller. That's the way semi-auto MM-31 is supposed to be.

But for S/42 Luger, better avoid reblue, regardless who did it. Unless it came as a reblue and had its price adjusted so. Even in above reblued MM-31 case, price should be adjusted, and there are far fewer of those in existence than S/42 (of course, far fewer amount of people care those, supply and demand still balance).

spartacus38 · 10-27-2013, 05:37 PM

Geo99,
1934 thru first variation 1937 military Lugers are rust blued and have halos around the barrel serial #.
Bob

DavidJayUden · 10-27-2013, 08:15 PM

Geo:
I mean "so what" in reference to reasonably priced guns. It would be a big deal if the gun is priced at $2k because of fine condition. But a matching gun in my price range of $1000 to $1200 probably would not be dismissed because I suspected a very old re-blue.
To me there is more to the alure of the Luger than simply it being 100% factory.
But I understand that I am in the minority here.
dju

DavidJayUden · 10-27-2013, 08:23 PM

"By "so what" I take it to mean you do not care if a gun appears 100% original but is missing the barrel halo on the SN? As long as it wasn't reblued recently?"

Geo:
I'd look at the whole gun. Does it show normal wear to the bluing that suggests an old job? That sort of wear suggests genuine character, the type that a Luger should show. They were using guns, not wall hangers and safe queens.
If the gun shows normal wear that is consistant with the date of mfg. and consistant throughout the gun, then I can live with it.
And I can live with a recent restoration, IF the price is right. But they don't usually pass my "crank test" like an original piece, so the price had better be right and it will be the first to go when the right money comes along.
dju

Geo99 · 10-30-2013, 12:56 AM

The gun I am thinking of is a 1937 S/42, SN 3771t, rust blue with strawed parts. I think it is close enough to the 3000t range to be an original rust blue. I am told it has no halos on the barrel, but I have read that 1937 can be hard to see a halo on. I suppose it could be a refinish, but the seller assures me it is not. I will have to wait until I get the gun in hand to determine originality, and I will post pictures then (a couple months from now at the rate I’m going).

Marc - I would be very interested if there is anything else you can tell me about this gun.

- Geo

CJS57 · 10-30-2013, 06:47 AM

I have 1937 in the S block with rust blue and halos on the barrel serial number. Some halos do not always form as much of a lighter colored ring as others. It can also depend on how deep the number is struck, deeper strike yields a larger halo area. The light color halo is really a result of the displaced metal around the impression. That surface metal is disturbed and altered a bit with a characteristic that I call "cellulite". Because that is what it looks like using a 10x loop. So that is something to look for, as even the best refinish will remove it. Also the sharpness and crispness of the struck edges are a big clue. They should be sharp and raised up, like a crater on the moon. None of these things can be seen without a jeweler's loop.

10-27-2013, 01:11 AM	#1
Geo99 User Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Whidbey Island WA Posts: 400 Thanks: 102 Thanked 127 Times in 75 Posts	Missing Halos I know this topic has probably been beat to death, but I have searched the archives and not found an answer to this question: Is a lack of any halo on the barrel a 100% reliable indicator that a rust-blued Luger gun is NOT original finish? (especially 1936-37 rust blue Mausers)? Say I have a gun that is completely righteous and shows no other signs of being refinished, and has a strong rust patina under the blue, but no visible halo. Would you ignore the missing barrel SN halo? Or would you say it must be reblued (no matter how good it looks otherwise)? - Geo __________________ "Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie, until you can find a rock." - Will Rogers

10-27-2013, 09:25 AM	#2
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,925 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,139 Times in 1,520 Posts	George, you should see a halo on a barrel serial number stamped after the barrel was rust blued. 1937, in particular, was a time of transition as the factory shifted over to salt blued guns. The shift was gradual, and could possibly have mixed parts from different processes. I'm not near my reference books right now, so can't verify things. What is the serial number and chamber date? __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

10-27-2013, 03:01 PM	#5
Geo99 User Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Whidbey Island WA Posts: 400 Thanks: 102 Thanked 127 Times in 75 Posts	Alvin - There is a gun I am thinking about, but pictures are not possible. I was speaking in general terms, to learn if any and all rust blued Lugers without the barrel halo should be avoided. David - I may have used the wrong terminology. By "rust patina under the blue" I meant the red/rust color you can see under an original blued finish in strong direct light, like sunlight or a maglite. I agree with you but I did not mean blue over rust pits or scratches. By "so what" I take it to mean you do not care if a gun appears 100% original but is missing the barrel halo on the SN? As long as it wasn't reblued recently? - Geo __________________ "Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie, until you can find a rock." - Will Rogers

10-30-2013, 12:56 AM	#10
Geo99 User Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Whidbey Island WA Posts: 400 Thanks: 102 Thanked 127 Times in 75 Posts	The gun I am thinking of is a 1937 S/42, SN 3771t, rust blue with strawed parts. I think it is close enough to the 3000t range to be an original rust blue. I am told it has no halos on the barrel, but I have read that 1937 can be hard to see a halo on. I suppose it could be a refinish, but the seller assures me it is not. I will have to wait until I get the gun in hand to determine originality, and I will post pictures then (a couple months from now at the rate I’m going). Marc - I would be very interested if there is anything else you can tell me about this gun. - Geo __________________ "Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggie, until you can find a rock." - Will Rogers

10-27-2013, 09:35 AM	#3
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	and has a strong rust patina under the blue It would seem to me that if you see any bluing over rust, scratches, etc, it is a certain sign that it has been reblued. For me the real question is "so what?" If a gun was reblued back during the war years by the German armorers, and everything else is righteous, is it a shooter? Certainly not in my book. dju

10-27-2013, 11:41 AM	#4
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Why not post some pictures, so we can take a look to see what's going on?

10-27-2013, 03:32 PM	#6
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Regarding "so what" question, I think that depends on context.. I have a converted Spanish semi-auto MM-31. The thing was welded in the conversion process and its frame was reblued. The "so what" statement applies. Well, at least I accepted it OK from the seller. That's the way semi-auto MM-31 is supposed to be. But for S/42 Luger, better avoid reblue, regardless who did it. Unless it came as a reblue and had its price adjusted so. Even in above reblued MM-31 case, price should be adjusted, and there are far fewer of those in existence than S/42 (of course, far fewer amount of people care those, supply and demand still balance).

10-27-2013, 05:37 PM	#7
spartacus38 Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: South Lake Tahoe,CA. Posts: 695 Thanks: 0 Thanked 70 Times in 56 Posts	Geo99, 1934 thru first variation 1937 military Lugers are rust blued and have halos around the barrel serial #. Bob

10-27-2013, 08:15 PM	#8
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Geo: I mean "so what" in reference to reasonably priced guns. It would be a big deal if the gun is priced at $2k because of fine condition. But a matching gun in my price range of $1000 to $1200 probably would not be dismissed because I suspected a very old re-blue. To me there is more to the alure of the Luger than simply it being 100% factory. But I understand that I am in the minority here. dju

10-27-2013, 08:23 PM	#9
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	"By "so what" I take it to mean you do not care if a gun appears 100% original but is missing the barrel halo on the SN? As long as it wasn't reblued recently?" Geo: I'd look at the whole gun. Does it show normal wear to the bluing that suggests an old job? That sort of wear suggests genuine character, the type that a Luger should show. They were using guns, not wall hangers and safe queens. If the gun shows normal wear that is consistant with the date of mfg. and consistant throughout the gun, then I can live with it. And I can live with a recent restoration, IF the price is right. But they don't usually pass my "crank test" like an original piece, so the price had better be right and it will be the first to go when the right money comes along. dju

10-30-2013, 06:47 AM	#11
CJS57 User Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 224 Thanks: 0 Thanked 81 Times in 41 Posts	I have 1937 in the S block with rust blue and halos on the barrel serial number. Some halos do not always form as much of a lighter colored ring as others. It can also depend on how deep the number is struck, deeper strike yields a larger halo area. The light color halo is really a result of the displaced metal around the impression. That surface metal is disturbed and altered a bit with a characteristic that I call "cellulite". Because that is what it looks like using a 10x loop. So that is something to look for, as even the best refinish will remove it. Also the sharpness and crispness of the struck edges are a big clue. They should be sharp and raised up, like a crater on the moon. None of these things can be seen without a jeweler's loop.