Navy Luger Books

Luke · 03-12-2002, 07:35 PM

Have recently developed a strong interest in Navy Lugers, particularly the 1914-type. The books which I have (Still, Kenyon, Reese) have very little useful information on the technical details and/or history.

Does anyone know of a book which provides in-depth coverage of this type of Luger?

Thanks, Luke

tom · 03-12-2002, 07:53 PM

Hi Luke,

Regrettably there is nothing that covers Navy lugers in any depth. My pal and fellow Navy collector Derek Seltzer and I are in preliminary discussions about doing a book but we havent gotten past the discussion stage.

We are actively gathering material, accessories and period photographs to include with the text once we get rolling.

E-mail me off net and I will send you some pix of some of our goodies.

Tom

03-12-2002, 09:42 PM

When you say NAVY LUGERS...do you mean the P.04 with a 150mm barrel or do you include all P.08s that are Navy marked on the gripstraps, too?....I get confused!

The Shadow is confused!!

Luke · 03-12-2002, 09:50 PM

In my original post I commented that my primary area of interest is the 1914-type Navy made by DWM in 1916 and 1917. I am aware that there are other types which are also interesting, but I am initially looking for detailed published information on the 1914-type.

From Tom's post, above, it appears there is no such publication. Disappointed

tracyp · 03-12-2002, 10:42 PM

Several books cover the Navy Luger, Walther, Still, Datig. Joachim Gort and John Walther wrote "The Navy Luger". You can get it through Auctionarms.com, Amazon.com. It sells for $25.00

Big Norm · 03-13-2002, 02:25 AM

I read Walthers book "The Navy Luger" and found it interesting buy not all that worthwhile. The book covered the history of the developement of this model but did not differentiate between years. Lots of information about ships. I had to write notes on the sides of the pages about which model he was talking about. I still think the "Lugers at Random" and Stills books are the best.

I have been studying that 1904 Navy Luger for a while now and I would love to sit in on a discussion between Stills, Gibson and Don Hallock on that Luger. Gibson seems to contradict a lot of what Hallock has told me and Stills has written. A friend of mine has one and I would love to hold it just to feel the balance of that navy. Actually, I may want to buy it. But negotiations have been slow.

The model 1914 also had chamber dated 1915's and 1918's. But for shooting "feel" and "balance" the 1908 has the same great balance that the model 1914 has.

To Shadow:

A P04 navy Luger is a Luger with a 6 inch barrel AND an adjustible 100 and 200 meter rear sight. A luger that does not conform to that definition is not a P04 navy model Luger. If the Luger has navy markings but does not have the above specifications, it is a Luger with navy markings but not a P04 navy model. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to refer to this style as the P04 Luger and not a navy Luger.

Big Norm

tom · 03-13-2002, 10:28 AM

The following taxonomy defines Navy Lugers to most of us who are "in to" them

1. Type 04. The original with the toggle lock, no date on the chamber and has a grip safety. Very rare and very expensive. Most are fakes.

2. Type 06. Toggle lock is gone, grip safety remains. There are 2 subvariations: Altered, in which the safety lever is activated by pivoting it to the rear of the pistol; and, Unaltered, in which the safety lever is activated by pivoting it forward towards the muzzle. May or may not be marked on rear grip strap with unit property markings (II S.B.=second see battalion)

3. Type 08. Incorporates as standard the Altered configuration for the safety lever and the grip safety is gone. There is no date on the chamber. A subvariation is the commercial 4" bbl P-08 pistols pressed into service which are identical to commercial P-08s in every respect except the Crown M proof that is typically found on the left side of the barrel extension. May or may not be unit marked

4. Type 14. Same as type 08 except chamber is dated. Very few are unit marked.

5. Commercial. May be of type 06, 08 or 14 but proofed in commercial style and marked Germany.

6. Weimar Navys. May be shortened (4") barrel version of any previously mentioned variant or a P-08 assembled with the 4" bbl. Typically marked on Grip strap with an Anchor and capital M. Many have unit property markings.

7. Kreigsmarine navys. These pistols are the K, G and dated chamber versions manufactured by Mauser and marked with the S/42, 42, and byf codes. (I have seen a banner marked pistol that was Navy marked but doubt its authenticity.) Kreigsmarine pistols will be marked with an N on the rear grip strap followed by a number to indicate Nordsee Flotte property or with an O and property number on the inner grip strap to indicate Ostsee Flotte property.

There may be other variants, but I am unaware of them.

I am writing this from memory, 3500 miles away from my Navys and reference books, so if I omitted something or made a mistake, please excuse me.

Tom

Luke · 03-13-2002, 01:45 PM

tom · 03-13-2002, 04:15 PM

My Alzheimer's must be acting up.

Two other Navy variants that slipped my mind are:

LP-08 that are Weimar Navy and/or Kreigsmarine marked. Usually have complete compliment of Imperial Army proofs on the right side of the barrel extension and have the Anchor M on rear grip strap. May or may not have property numbers.

and

"Sneak" Navys that are assembled from commercial parts and have navy markings. Markings may be Anchor M for Weimar era or Eagle M for early III Reich. May be found in both 7.65 and 9MM; both are correct. Most have property markings.

Sorry for the omission guys

Tom

Big Norm · 03-14-2002, 02:00 PM

Tom,

fine write up of the navy variants. But there is more.

(1) There are four variants of the 1906 not three.You forgot the first issue altered.

(2) The 1908 P04 differs from the model 1914 in that the 1908 P04 has a long frame and the Model 1914 P04 has a short frame. The model 1914 also has a rear toogle pin that is unique in that the flange is larger then (to my knowlege) any other Luger. Commercial 1908's may or may not be long frames. The commercial 1908/model 1914 in the 50000 serial number range have short frames.

Big Norm

03-12-2002, 07:35 PM	#1
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 7 Posts	Navy Luger Books Have recently developed a strong interest in Navy Lugers, particularly the 1914-type. The books which I have (Still, Kenyon, Reese) have very little useful information on the technical details and/or history. Does anyone know of a book which provides in-depth coverage of this type of Luger? Thanks, Luke

03-12-2002, 07:53 PM	#2
tom User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 269 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Re: Navy Luger Books Hi Luke, Regrettably there is nothing that covers Navy lugers in any depth. My pal and fellow Navy collector Derek Seltzer and I are in preliminary discussions about doing a book but we havent gotten past the discussion stage. We are actively gathering material, accessories and period photographs to include with the text once we get rolling. E-mail me off net and I will send you some pix of some of our goodies. Tom

03-12-2002, 09:42 PM	#3
The Shadow Guest Posts: n/a	Navy Luger When you say NAVY LUGERS...do you mean the P.04 with a 150mm barrel or do you include all P.08s that are Navy marked on the gripstraps, too?....I get confused! The Shadow is confused!!

03-12-2002, 09:50 PM	#4
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 7 Posts	Hello Shadow - Navy Luger Types In my original post I commented that my primary area of interest is the 1914-type Navy made by DWM in 1916 and 1917. I am aware that there are other types which are also interesting, but I am initially looking for detailed published information on the 1914-type. From Tom's post, above, it appears there is no such publication. Disappointed

03-12-2002, 10:42 PM	#5
tracyp User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Peoples Republic of Kalifornia Posts: 391 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Re: Navy Luger Books Several books cover the Navy Luger, Walther, Still, Datig. Joachim Gort and John Walther wrote "The Navy Luger". You can get it through Auctionarms.com, Amazon.com. It sells for $25.00

03-13-2002, 02:25 AM	#6
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Re: Navy Luger Books I read Walthers book "The Navy Luger" and found it interesting buy not all that worthwhile. The book covered the history of the developement of this model but did not differentiate between years. Lots of information about ships. I had to write notes on the sides of the pages about which model he was talking about. I still think the "Lugers at Random" and Stills books are the best. I have been studying that 1904 Navy Luger for a while now and I would love to sit in on a discussion between Stills, Gibson and Don Hallock on that Luger. Gibson seems to contradict a lot of what Hallock has told me and Stills has written. A friend of mine has one and I would love to hold it just to feel the balance of that navy. Actually, I may want to buy it. But negotiations have been slow. The model 1914 also had chamber dated 1915's and 1918's. But for shooting "feel" and "balance" the 1908 has the same great balance that the model 1914 has. To Shadow: A P04 navy Luger is a Luger with a 6 inch barrel AND an adjustible 100 and 200 meter rear sight. A luger that does not conform to that definition is not a P04 navy model Luger. If the Luger has navy markings but does not have the above specifications, it is a Luger with navy markings but not a P04 navy model. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to refer to this style as the P04 Luger and not a navy Luger. Big Norm

03-13-2002, 10:28 AM	#7
tom User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 269 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Navy Luger Variants The following taxonomy defines Navy Lugers to most of us who are "in to" them 1. Type 04. The original with the toggle lock, no date on the chamber and has a grip safety. Very rare and very expensive. Most are fakes. 2. Type 06. Toggle lock is gone, grip safety remains. There are 2 subvariations: Altered, in which the safety lever is activated by pivoting it to the rear of the pistol; and, Unaltered, in which the safety lever is activated by pivoting it forward towards the muzzle. May or may not be marked on rear grip strap with unit property markings (II S.B.=second see battalion) 3. Type 08. Incorporates as standard the Altered configuration for the safety lever and the grip safety is gone. There is no date on the chamber. A subvariation is the commercial 4" bbl P-08 pistols pressed into service which are identical to commercial P-08s in every respect except the Crown M proof that is typically found on the left side of the barrel extension. May or may not be unit marked 4. Type 14. Same as type 08 except chamber is dated. Very few are unit marked. 5. Commercial. May be of type 06, 08 or 14 but proofed in commercial style and marked Germany. 6. Weimar Navys. May be shortened (4") barrel version of any previously mentioned variant or a P-08 assembled with the 4" bbl. Typically marked on Grip strap with an Anchor and capital M. Many have unit property markings. 7. Kreigsmarine navys. These pistols are the K, G and dated chamber versions manufactured by Mauser and marked with the S/42, 42, and byf codes. (I have seen a banner marked pistol that was Navy marked but doubt its authenticity.) Kreigsmarine pistols will be marked with an N on the rear grip strap followed by a number to indicate Nordsee Flotte property or with an O and property number on the inner grip strap to indicate Ostsee Flotte property. There may be other variants, but I am unaware of them. I am writing this from memory, 3500 miles away from my Navys and reference books, so if I omitted something or made a mistake, please excuse me. Tom

03-13-2002, 01:45 PM	#8
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 7 Posts	Great post, Tom. Thank you. (EOM)

03-13-2002, 04:15 PM	#9
tom User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 269 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Navy Luger Variants Another two My Alzheimer's must be acting up. Two other Navy variants that slipped my mind are: LP-08 that are Weimar Navy and/or Kreigsmarine marked. Usually have complete compliment of Imperial Army proofs on the right side of the barrel extension and have the Anchor M on rear grip strap. May or may not have property numbers. and "Sneak" Navys that are assembled from commercial parts and have navy markings. Markings may be Anchor M for Weimar era or Eagle M for early III Reich. May be found in both 7.65 and 9MM; both are correct. Most have property markings. Sorry for the omission guys Tom

03-14-2002, 02:00 PM	#10
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Re: Navy Luger Variants Tom, fine write up of the navy variants. But there is more. (1) There are four variants of the 1906 not three.You forgot the first issue altered. (2) The 1908 P04 differs from the model 1914 in that the 1908 P04 has a long frame and the Model 1914 P04 has a short frame. The model 1914 also has a rear toogle pin that is unique in that the flange is larger then (to my knowlege) any other Luger. Commercial 1908's may or may not be long frames. The commercial 1908/model 1914 in the 50000 serial number range have short frames. Big Norm