Help with Erfurt pistol

Frank53 · 05-10-2013, 08:37 AM

Greetings all. Looking for some insight into this pistol. Here's what I know...Erfurt Arsenal, has German proofs, dated 1914, grips are marked 44 on the inside, most of the small parts are marked 44...SN 3744a. Stamped Germany on right side.

Info I'm not sure about:
Is the model 1914 or is that the actual year of manufacture?
Is this what is called an Artillery Luger?
Seems the barrel was an afterthought (it is marked 8779a), was that done before it was imported?
Were the Artillery Luger's manufactured as such or were typical Lugers cut and longer barrels added?

Appx value of the pistol?

Thank you

John Sabato · 05-10-2013, 09:07 AM

This WAS an Artillery Model Luger, but the barrel has been modified, probably shortened and a new front sight base installed, perhaps due to the original muzzle being damaged? The elegant front sight ring which is standard on all factory Luger PISTOL barrels (not carbines), is missing.

This would dramatically reduce the collector value. I will let others give you a ballpark of what it might be worth in its current state.

ithacaartist · 05-10-2013, 02:16 PM

Hi Frank, welcome to the forum,

Erfurts, after a point, all used the same frame and receiver; the latter would all have had a notch let into the top front edge of the barrel extension which allows the rear sight leaf to sit in its lowest proper position. You'll see this on yours.

Generally, the date roll-stamped onto the top front radius of the receiver is the date of manufacture. This is not to be confused with a hand-stamped "1920" you'll see, usually in addition to an earlier actual mfg. date. This stamping is actually a Wiemar property mark identifying these guns as having been government property, in the 20s, and preventing them from being turned in for the bounty offered for weapons back then.

An artillery model is worth at least $1,000 to $1,200, even shooter grade mix-masters such as yours. I've noticed serial numbers in your pics of the rear sight which match neither of the serial #s on the frame of bbl. Consider it at the low end because of the shenanigans perpetrated by shortening the barrel. One might raise the value if the shortened bbl. were replaced with a properly configured bbl. of original 200 mm, which you might be able to find somewhere down the road, but cost of doing this may obliterate any rise in potential value. At least you'd have a properly configured Arty, albeit non-matching.

Even at this length, you will enjoy shooting it, I'm sure.

You're showing some leather in a pic. If it is an original holster/rig in good shape, it might be worth more than the gun. Loading tool? Cleaning rod? Board stock? ...cha-ching!

David Parker

Frank53 · 05-11-2013, 11:50 AM

The leather is in bad shape..original belt straps are gone. No cleaning rod. Wish it had the stock!! With the "Germany" on the bbl, indicates imported at some time...Can I assume there is no way of knowing if the imported bbl was put on after it got to the US or was this gun buggered before import? Wonder why someone would want a shorter bbl?

This is a buddy's gun whose grandfather gave it to his father then the father gave it to him. Not much into older guns but wanted to know about it and knew I was a bit more familiar with firearms. Too bad its a mix match...but interesting nonetheless.

George Anderson · 05-11-2013, 08:39 PM

It may well be a 1914 P08 (4") which would not have the notch relieved under the rear sight. Your long barrel was manufactured for a 1917 or 1918 DWM artillery model as is evidenced by the lack of fine tune rear sight.

Frank53 · 05-12-2013, 04:07 PM

I'm not sure I understand the relieved notch under the read sight? Was there a cut out for the sight to fit in? This is under the rear sight...

ithacaartist · 05-12-2013, 10:17 PM

Yep Frank, that's it exactly. You can see in your pic that the very back, bottom corner would contact the front, curved top of the barrel extension--if it were still round.

George Anderson, does this mean that these relief notches began at Erfurt after 1914? My 1917 DWM Artie has a fine tune rear sight. Wasn't 1917 the year when the fine tune front sight was phased out--some had them, some not?

George Anderson · 05-13-2013, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

George Anderson, does this mean that these relief notches began at Erfurt after 1914? My 1917 DWM Artie has a fine tune rear sight. Wasn't 1917 the year when the fine tune front sight was phased out--some had them, some not?

No the notch began with the first artilleries in 1914. I merely speculated that the pistol could have been a P08 prior to seeing the notch. That speculation was based on the fact that the rear sight is from either a 1917 or 1918 DWM LP08.

05-10-2013, 08:37 AM	#1
Frank53 New User Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 3 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Help with Erfurt pistol Greetings all. Looking for some insight into this pistol. Here's what I know...Erfurt Arsenal, has German proofs, dated 1914, grips are marked 44 on the inside, most of the small parts are marked 44...SN 3744a. Stamped Germany on right side. Info I'm not sure about: Is the model 1914 or is that the actual year of manufacture? Is this what is called an Artillery Luger? Seems the barrel was an afterthought (it is marked 8779a), was that done before it was imported? Were the Artillery Luger's manufactured as such or were typical Lugers cut and longer barrels added? Appx value of the pistol? Thank you Attached Thumbnails

05-10-2013, 09:07 AM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,155 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	This WAS an Artillery Model Luger, but the barrel has been modified, probably shortened and a new front sight base installed, perhaps due to the original muzzle being damaged? The elegant front sight ring which is standard on all factory Luger PISTOL barrels (not carbines), is missing. This would dramatically reduce the collector value. I will let others give you a ballpark of what it might be worth in its current state. Attached Images __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-10-2013, 02:16 PM	#3
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,369 Thanks: 7,432 Thanked 2,611 Times in 1,378 Posts	Hi Frank, welcome to the forum, Erfurts, after a point, all used the same frame and receiver; the latter would all have had a notch let into the top front edge of the barrel extension which allows the rear sight leaf to sit in its lowest proper position. You'll see this on yours. Generally, the date roll-stamped onto the top front radius of the receiver is the date of manufacture. This is not to be confused with a hand-stamped "1920" you'll see, usually in addition to an earlier actual mfg. date. This stamping is actually a Wiemar property mark identifying these guns as having been government property, in the 20s, and preventing them from being turned in for the bounty offered for weapons back then. An artillery model is worth at least $1,000 to $1,200, even shooter grade mix-masters such as yours. I've noticed serial numbers in your pics of the rear sight which match neither of the serial #s on the frame of bbl. Consider it at the low end because of the shenanigans perpetrated by shortening the barrel. One might raise the value if the shortened bbl. were replaced with a properly configured bbl. of original 200 mm, which you might be able to find somewhere down the road, but cost of doing this may obliterate any rise in potential value. At least you'd have a properly configured Arty, albeit non-matching. Even at this length, you will enjoy shooting it, I'm sure. You're showing some leather in a pic. If it is an original holster/rig in good shape, it might be worth more than the gun. Loading tool? Cleaning rod? Board stock? ...cha-ching! David Parker __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

05-12-2013, 04:07 PM	#6
Frank53 New User Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 3 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I'm not sure I understand the relieved notch under the read sight? Was there a cut out for the sight to fit in? This is under the rear sight... Attached Thumbnails

05-12-2013, 10:17 PM	#7
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,369 Thanks: 7,432 Thanked 2,611 Times in 1,378 Posts	Yep Frank, that's it exactly. You can see in your pic that the very back, bottom corner would contact the front, curved top of the barrel extension--if it were still round. George Anderson, does this mean that these relief notches began at Erfurt after 1914? My 1917 DWM Artie has a fine tune rear sight. Wasn't 1917 the year when the fine tune front sight was phased out--some had them, some not? __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

05-11-2013, 11:50 AM	#4
Frank53 New User Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 3 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The leather is in bad shape..original belt straps are gone. No cleaning rod. Wish it had the stock!! With the "Germany" on the bbl, indicates imported at some time...Can I assume there is no way of knowing if the imported bbl was put on after it got to the US or was this gun buggered before import? Wonder why someone would want a shorter bbl? This is a buddy's gun whose grandfather gave it to his father then the father gave it to him. Not much into older guns but wanted to know about it and knew I was a bit more familiar with firearms. Too bad its a mix match...but interesting nonetheless.

05-11-2013, 08:39 PM	#5
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	It may well be a 1914 P08 (4") which would not have the notch relieved under the rear sight. Your long barrel was manufactured for a 1917 or 1918 DWM artillery model as is evidenced by the lack of fine tune rear sight.