K date rig, all matching

[myky]

For all you K date fans........ You can add this this to your serial numbers data. An as issued, original period K date, with 2 original, period numbered mags, it's original period matching holster, and original period proofed tool. It has approx 97/98% period blue and straw with a mint bore. It came into a Texas show here with a like conditioned 1940 Krieghoff from a vet's son. Don't give up, as they are still out there ! As with the Krieghoff, I'll be glad to send any detailed scan you need.

Blessings....... Myky

[alanint]

Just WOW!!

[myky]

Thanks bud ! The LORD has been good to me........... ( for whatever reason )

God bless......... Myky

[Norme]

Hi Mike, I don't wish to alarm you, but I have serious concerns with the tool, which looks Norwegian. Could you post close-ups of the front sight band, the receiver indents, if present, and the rear frame ears? Thanks, Norm

[myky]

Hi Norm....... thanks for the reply guy. The tool has the umlaut O and 37 in the bar like the
1st issue Lugers. It is the same as the proof on the RH recievers of the early Lugers and with the scriptic S. And I'll get you the scans shortly.........

God bless......... Mike

[Norme]

Hi Mike, What concerns me about the tool are the curved machining marks on the blade tip. They are a distinctive feature of Norwegian made tools (see below). I'm not a K date specialist, Spartacus38 is, hopefully he will weigh in soon. Regards, Norm

[myky]

Ok...... here's the scans. I've also added Still's data on the K dates to be helpful. As you can see in the frame comparison, the K date rear frame ears are thicker. And, can you send me a scan of what a Norwegian tool looks like ?

Blessings........ Mike

[Norme]

Hi Mike, The questionable tool leads me to take a closer look at the gun itself. As I said earlier, K dates are not my bag, but I do know that all of them should have sharp edged front sight bands, that those with low serials like #1080 should have the Mauser hump, and that most of them should have receiver indents. Attached below is a link to a lengthy study of K dates on the other forum. Your pictures aren't clear enough for me to tell if the front sight band is sharp edged, or if the receiver has indents, but the frame certainly doesn't have the Mauser hump. Regards, Norm

http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...e-DATA-REQUEST

[siegersallee]

That's a looker!!!

[George Anderson]

Mike, I think it might help clear the air if you were to give the provenence of this rare find.

[Jan C Still]

Mike
K date sn 1056 (very close to your sn 1080 shown above) is shown on pages 19 and 20 of Third Reich Lugers. There are some differences with your sn 1080.

I cannot see the hump at the rear of the frame. Does 1080 have indents at the front of the frame? Cannot tell from the photographs if the the rear of the front sight has a sharp barrel band.
Jan

[klaus 3338]

Myky,
your tool is Norwegian. All ö/37 tools have the older Weimar shape and your tool has already the Mauser shape.
On the fist picture are typical blades of tools which were postwar made in Norway and on the second some early Mauser tools with Weimar shapes.

[Norme]

I find it interesting that the machining marks on the tip of the tool showed it to be fake. This led to closer examination of the gun, which now also appears to be fake, and now also calls into question the 1940 Krieghoff rig from the same source. As the old saying goes, "the Devil's in the details". Regards, Norm

[lugerholsterrepair]

Two of the most complicated Lugers there are..K date and Krieghoff.

[Leon DeSpain]

Hi All,

I'm sorry my name was brought into this discussion. I no longer collect Mauser Lugers and haven't for several years. I have concentrated on P.38s for some time. I have never collected Kreighoffs. I did look at both pistols in question but not an in depth examination because they weren't for sale and I wasn't interested in buying them anyway. Nothing on the K date jumped out at me as being wrong but I have only owned 2 K dates and neither of those were rigs with matching mags. I have seen very few in my collecting years and have never studied them in depth because they are somewhat rare and I wasn't going to be collecting them, as such. I am a novice with Krieghoffs, at best, and only have Gibson's book to use as a reference, certainly not my experience.

I have a decent basic knowledge of Third Reich Lugers left over from my collecting days but I don't consider myself a Luger expert (far from it) and certainly am not a Kreighoff expert.

I hope this clears this situation up where I am concerned.

Regards, Leon

[Balder]

Gentlemen,

I have no strong opinions about the authenticity of the guns in question. However, as a Norwegian collector of Lugers I am curious about the Norwegian tools which I never have heard about. Is the production of these a documented fact?

Some years ago we had a discussion on this forum about Norwegian-made Luger parts. I contacted the curator at the museum of Kongsberg Våpenfabrikk (state arsenal) who also worked at the factory for many years after the war. According to him, the only Luger parts made there were barrels. I have seen several other parts with the Kongsberg logo, but these were German-made spare parts.

Now, whether he would consider the tool as a "part" I do not know, but I am pretty sure he would have mentioned it anyway if in fact they did make them. Sadly, he is not around anymore.

Balder

[klaus 3338]

Originally Posted by Balder

Gentlemen,

I have no strong opinions about the authenticity of the guns in question. However, as a Norwegian collector of Lugers I am curious about the Norwegian tools which I never have heard about. Is the production of these a documented fact?

Some years ago we had a discussion on this forum about Norwegian-made Luger parts. I contacted the curator at the museum of Kongsberg Våpenfabrikk (state arsenal) who also worked at the factory for many years after the war. According to him, the only Luger parts made there were barrels. I have seen several other parts with the Kongsberg logo, but these were German-made spare parts.

Now, whether he would consider the tool as a "part" I do not know, but I am pretty sure he would have mentioned it anyway if in fact they did make them. Sadly, he is not around anymore.

Balder

Please ask Jan Erik Martinsen from the Military Museum in Oslo about the tools. I remember that I saw in Oslo hundreds of tools in the 1980 and 1990 years. Many were from the Third Reich times and other made by Kongsberg after the war for the Lugers which were used by the Norwegian Army after the war.

[Norme]

Originally Posted by CJS57

How does one fake an entire Luger? Do you start with an unmarked "sneak" and then make all the many stamps to remark it? Or do you hand cut the markings? What about the finishing? Can anyone refinish a Luger ( blue, halos, straw, tin plating, and aluminum) such that our experts here cannot tell? If it can fool the experts, how would anyone ever know? I am machine shop trained and have examined 500,000 and sold 10,000 collector guns over the last 50 years so I am not a beginner. Just curious how faking an entire gun is done?

Hi Chris, My primary area of interest is Imperial Navy Lugers and, trust me, anything from the humble loading tool to complete guns can be faked, as I know from bitter personal experience (see photos). A modern machine shop, as you must know, can reproduce anything made 70 to 100 years ago if there is sufficient financial incentive.
In the case of this K date, it was probably fabricated from a later Mauser, like a G date, in need of refinishing. After the old markings were removed and K date markings applied, it was refinished. We already know that the faker had access to period dies from the tool. A lot of work, I know, but the upside potential is enormous. All K dates, without exception, have sharp edged barrel bands. It's a shame that, when asked to post clearer photos, Myky had a hissy fit and left.
Regards, Norm

[Jan C Still]

Norme
Well stated:
"Hi Chris, My primary area of interest is Imperial Navy Lugers and, trust me, anything from the humble loading tool to complete guns can be faked, as I know from bitter personal experience (see photos). A modern machine shop, as you must know, can reproduce anything made 70 to 100 years ago if there is sufficient financial incentive.
In the case of this K date, it was probably fabricated from a later Mauser, like a G date, in need of refinishing. After the old markings were removed and K date markings applied, it was refinished. We already know that the faker had access to period dies from the tool. A lot of work, I know, but the upside potential is enormous."
Jan

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Norme

In the case of this K date, it was probably fabricated from a later Mauser, like a G date, in need of refinishing. After the old markings were removed and K date markings applied, it was refinished. We already know that the faker had access to period dies from the tool.

So the 'mechanic' or a partner would go to a large gun show, stake out a table showing Lugers, wait for a 'mark' asking enough questions to show he is interested and has $$$, and then swoop down on him and offer him a deal he can't resist on the K Date/Totenkopf/Russian Contract Luger...Oh, and I forgot the 'story' (every Luger has a story)..."Brought back by my grandfather, taken from the battlefield, never registered, stored 60+ years unfired (that's why the barrel is so nice & shiny), and because I've lost my job and want to keep my house I'm selling it at a loss...today only..."

I'm sorry to admit that I fell for a similar scam over on ARFCOM back in '04...