HELP! 1918 DWM Artillery w/o Acceptance Marks

Helio-Abt · 03-07-2012, 09:15 AM

Price currently around $2,400 subject to negotiation...

lugerholsterrepair · 03-07-2012, 09:42 AM

Markus..can you explain a little more? Are you considering buy this pistol? Photo's..more thorough description? With do little to go on you will not get much help..

Helio-Abt · 03-07-2012, 09:54 AM

Sorry Jerry,

I wanted to add this to my previous post but posted it as a new thread. My fault!
The original states:

I am looking at a possibly re-blued, all-matching (incl. magazine) 1918 DWM Artillery for possible purchase.

The odd thing is that it has no acceptance marks on the right side. Parts are all marked , barrel is proofed with an '8.82' and serial number.

The picture shows a 1938 with marks where the one I am looking at has none.

It does not appear anything was ground off....

Thoughts?

lugerholsterrepair · 03-07-2012, 10:09 AM

Markus..If there are no proofs on the right side and there is a 1918 date the proofs have been removed. Likely done when it was reblued. Odd that these would be scrubbed and no other markings disturbed but if it is a 1918 military those markings were once there.

There is only one other possiblity I could think of and I have never heard of it..the pistol was made late in the war..not proofed or accepted nor issued to the military. Even then though it would have some firing proofs such as a Crown U or Crown N as all German weapons must pass firing proofs. It would then have likely been marked Germany somewhere on it.

More likely the military acceptance was taken off.

padredan · 03-07-2012, 11:44 AM

some refinishers are masters at removing any stamps or markings, like th others are telling you. More than likely removed. 2400.00 for a rebluded and refinished , i would guess if it is well done and extra nice, but sounds a bit steep.

lugerholsterrepair · 03-07-2012, 11:55 AM

Proof marks on the right side of an Artillery are usually pretty deep..Take a close look under a magnifying light ..you may be able to detect a trace of them left. To remove them completely would involve a pretty good removal of metal..Look for a concave dish..

George Anderson · 03-07-2012, 03:05 PM

1918 artilleries have been noted with some missing acceptance stamps. I do not recall seeing any without proof marks. 1918's can pose alot of questions as the Imperial government fell at the end of the year or early in 1919 and the DWM plant's production lines were, in all likelihood, filled with products that would have been completed later.

Helio-Abt · 03-08-2012, 12:26 AM

I will try to get some photos and do a closer inspection with a loupe to determine what's up. Like I said before, the parts are all numbered, it appears proofed, and the 1918 is there.

Back to you today and thanks to all for the assistance!

Helio-Abt · 03-08-2012, 04:09 AM

As promised: Seven images of the subject.

This one shows (IMHO) no signs of grinding off acceptance marks.
Appears this pistol may not have made it to the military.

VR
Markus

Helio-Abt · 03-08-2012, 04:10 AM

Left side - no straw....

Helio-Abt · 03-08-2012, 04:12 AM

Barrel proof 8,85 not visible in image.
SN shows.

Helio-Abt · 03-08-2012, 04:14 AM

DWM and date.

Helio-Abt · 03-08-2012, 04:15 AM

No SN on grip

Helio-Abt · 03-08-2012, 04:17 AM

No SN

Helio-Abt · 03-08-2012, 04:18 AM

The weapon without stock

padredan · 03-08-2012, 11:05 AM

oustanding, thanks for posting

Helio-Abt · 03-08-2012, 11:08 AM

Any comments on the value of this beast would be appreciated.
I am a Nugerbee and have no idea.

Nugerbee = new luger aficionado (just made that up

)

ithacaartist · 03-08-2012, 11:31 AM

Marcus,
The photos lead me to believe this pistol has been at least refinished. As you point out, there is straw color missing. Notice also in the first 2 pics, the bbl is a different color than the frame, etc., which are a blacker blue. I think the blacker blue is more modern and may very well indicate refinishing. (Markings can be filled in by TIG welding and finished level with the original surface.) This color differential may also indicate a bbl change, but others will help with serial number range and possibly determine if your pistol started out life as an Artie. Diminished stampings may only be an artifact of prep for the refinish, but one of mine suffers the same color difference along with a bbl with diminished serial number of another font. But it is a shooter that cost $7-800.

In the example pic you first posted, notice how the markings are beginning to disappear, and that there is a well defined edge that has appeared on the side, by the front of the chamber, where it should be rounded. This effect would be avoided by the fill-and-level method of removing the marks.

I'd be happier with a price significantly below $2k for this one. Best hang in there until this discussion plays out and all the real experts have weighed in...

Helio-Abt · 03-08-2012, 12:04 PM

The only questions I would have about that is how did the restorer get all the artillery serial numbered parts to match, e.g. sight - and the barrel serial number font looks the same as the receiver's ?

Thanks

JTD · 03-08-2012, 12:24 PM

I think the major parts are original, but buffed/refinished. It does look like a good job though. Seems shooter artilleries are going in the 1500 +/- dollar range in my neck of the woods. Serial numbering of LP-08 and P-08 were intermixed during production, so it cannot be determined by serial # alone. I cannot see for sure in the pics provided, does the top of upper reciever have the artillery notch in front of date area? If it does, it left the DWM factory as an artillery. This does not hold true to Erfurt manufactured pistols as they all left the factory with this notch late war. I think proof area has had some restoration work in the area, possibly pits filled, and obliterating proofing, and grips are replaced. Something with rear sight looks force matched to me also. Either way it is a nice looking shooter. John

03-07-2012, 09:15 AM	#1
Helio-Abt User Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Windhoek, Namibia (SW Africa) Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 3 Posts	HELP! 1918 DWM Artillery w/o Acceptance Marks Price currently around $2,400 subject to negotiation...

03-07-2012, 09:42 AM	#2
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,761 Thanks: 4,863 Thanked 3,101 Times in 1,427 Posts	Markus..can you explain a little more? Are you considering buy this pistol? Photo's..more thorough description? With do little to go on you will not get much help.. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-07-2012, 09:54 AM	#3
Helio-Abt User Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Windhoek, Namibia (SW Africa) Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 3 Posts	OK, I screwed up.... 1918 DWM Sorry Jerry, I wanted to add this to my previous post but posted it as a new thread. My fault! The original states: I am looking at a possibly re-blued, all-matching (incl. magazine) 1918 DWM Artillery for possible purchase. The odd thing is that it has no acceptance marks on the right side. Parts are all marked , barrel is proofed with an '8.82' and serial number. The picture shows a 1938 with marks where the one I am looking at has none. It does not appear anything was ground off.... Thoughts? Attached Thumbnails

03-07-2012, 10:09 AM	#4
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,761 Thanks: 4,863 Thanked 3,101 Times in 1,427 Posts	Markus..If there are no proofs on the right side and there is a 1918 date the proofs have been removed. Likely done when it was reblued. Odd that these would be scrubbed and no other markings disturbed but if it is a 1918 military those markings were once there. There is only one other possiblity I could think of and I have never heard of it..the pistol was made late in the war..not proofed or accepted nor issued to the military. Even then though it would have some firing proofs such as a Crown U or Crown N as all German weapons must pass firing proofs. It would then have likely been marked Germany somewhere on it. More likely the military acceptance was taken off. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-07-2012, 11:44 AM	#5
padredan User Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: louisiana Now, but from the Rebublic of Texas Posts: 937 Thanks: 429 Thanked 316 Times in 182 Posts	some refinishers are masters at removing any stamps or markings, like th others are telling you. More than likely removed. 2400.00 for a rebluded and refinished , i would guess if it is well done and extra nice, but sounds a bit steep. __________________ In this world nothing is free, except the grace of God

03-07-2012, 11:55 AM	#6
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,761 Thanks: 4,863 Thanked 3,101 Times in 1,427 Posts	Proof marks on the right side of an Artillery are usually pretty deep..Take a close look under a magnifying light ..you may be able to detect a trace of them left. To remove them completely would involve a pretty good removal of metal..Look for a concave dish.. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-07-2012, 03:05 PM	#7
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	1918 artilleries have been noted with some missing acceptance stamps. I do not recall seeing any without proof marks. 1918's can pose alot of questions as the Imperial government fell at the end of the year or early in 1919 and the DWM plant's production lines were, in all likelihood, filled with products that would have been completed later.

03-08-2012, 12:26 AM	#8
Helio-Abt User Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Windhoek, Namibia (SW Africa) Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 3 Posts	Follow Up I will try to get some photos and do a closer inspection with a loupe to determine what's up. Like I said before, the parts are all numbered, it appears proofed, and the 1918 is there. Back to you today and thanks to all for the assistance!

03-08-2012, 04:09 AM	#9
Helio-Abt User Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Windhoek, Namibia (SW Africa) Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 3 Posts	Images As promised: Seven images of the subject. This one shows (IMHO) no signs of grinding off acceptance marks. Appears this pistol may not have made it to the military. VR Markus Attached Thumbnails

03-08-2012, 04:10 AM	#10
Helio-Abt User Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Windhoek, Namibia (SW Africa) Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 3 Posts	Images con't. 2/7 Left side - no straw.... Attached Thumbnails

03-08-2012, 04:12 AM	#11
Helio-Abt User Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Windhoek, Namibia (SW Africa) Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 3 Posts	3/7 Barrel proof 8,85 not visible in image. SN shows. Attached Thumbnails

03-08-2012, 04:14 AM	#12
Helio-Abt User Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Windhoek, Namibia (SW Africa) Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 3 Posts	4/7 - Top Side DWM and date. Attached Thumbnails

03-08-2012, 04:15 AM	#13
Helio-Abt User Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Windhoek, Namibia (SW Africa) Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 3 Posts	5/7 Grip removed No SN on grip Attached Thumbnails

03-08-2012, 04:17 AM	#14
Helio-Abt User Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Windhoek, Namibia (SW Africa) Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 3 Posts	6/7 Grip No SN Attached Thumbnails

03-08-2012, 04:18 AM	#15
Helio-Abt User Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Windhoek, Namibia (SW Africa) Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 3 Posts	7/7 Overview The weapon without stock Attached Thumbnails

03-08-2012, 11:05 AM	#16
padredan User Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: louisiana Now, but from the Rebublic of Texas Posts: 937 Thanks: 429 Thanked 316 Times in 182 Posts	oustanding, thanks for posting __________________ In this world nothing is free, except the grace of God

03-08-2012, 11:08 AM	#17
Helio-Abt User Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Windhoek, Namibia (SW Africa) Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 3 Posts	Any comments on the value of this beast would be appreciated. I am a Nugerbee and have no idea. Nugerbee = new luger aficionado (just made that up )

03-08-2012, 11:31 AM	#18
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,288 Thanks: 7,035 Thanked 2,482 Times in 1,323 Posts	Marcus, The photos lead me to believe this pistol has been at least refinished. As you point out, there is straw color missing. Notice also in the first 2 pics, the bbl is a different color than the frame, etc., which are a blacker blue. I think the blacker blue is more modern and may very well indicate refinishing. (Markings can be filled in by TIG welding and finished level with the original surface.) This color differential may also indicate a bbl change, but others will help with serial number range and possibly determine if your pistol started out life as an Artie. Diminished stampings may only be an artifact of prep for the refinish, but one of mine suffers the same color difference along with a bbl with diminished serial number of another font. But it is a shooter that cost $7-800. In the example pic you first posted, notice how the markings are beginning to disappear, and that there is a well defined edge that has appeared on the side, by the front of the chamber, where it should be rounded. This effect would be avoided by the fill-and-level method of removing the marks. I'd be happier with a price significantly below $2k for this one. Best hang in there until this discussion plays out and all the real experts have weighed in...

03-08-2012, 12:04 PM	#19
Helio-Abt User Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Windhoek, Namibia (SW Africa) Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 3 Posts	The only questions I would have about that is how did the restorer get all the artillery serial numbered parts to match, e.g. sight - and the barrel serial number font looks the same as the receiver's ? Thanks

03-08-2012, 12:24 PM	#20
JTD User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: PA Posts: 424 Thanks: 215 Thanked 407 Times in 148 Posts	I think the major parts are original, but buffed/refinished. It does look like a good job though. Seems shooter artilleries are going in the 1500 +/- dollar range in my neck of the woods. Serial numbering of LP-08 and P-08 were intermixed during production, so it cannot be determined by serial # alone. I cannot see for sure in the pics provided, does the top of upper reciever have the artillery notch in front of date area? If it does, it left the DWM factory as an artillery. This does not hold true to Erfurt manufactured pistols as they all left the factory with this notch late war. I think proof area has had some restoration work in the area, possibly pits filled, and obliterating proofing, and grips are replaced. Something with rear sight looks force matched to me also. Either way it is a nice looking shooter. John