Erma La/Ep .22 mags

[ithacaartist]

Gentlemen:

This started out as a PM to GT; you will soon see why. However, since someone else on the forum may have suggestions for me, here it is.

Here's the story for today:

Despite (well, maybe because of) all the warnings about the Erma .22 Luger-wannabes, I bought a couple recently at 2 auctions. About $200 each. To tell the truth, I've had a lot of fun trying to persuade them to function properly...not to mention significant success! I've done plenty of research about what to do to coax these guns to work acceptably. I've found that the Ermas are ammunition sensitive and magazine sensitive. I was getting failure to feed, failure to fire, failure to extract, failure to eject; I even got one to slam fire as it nestled into battery.

First, I cleaned the guns thoroughly and discovered that they worked a little better if the loaded mags were drenched in lube--an interesting discovery, but doing it this way is messy.

Next, I went to work on the ammo. Reasoning that many of the failures were potentially due to lack of energy/momentum in cycling the action, I ran some of what I had on hand to see the results. I tried Federal--I had a partial bulk box of 500 handy; no great luck there. Then a couple varieties of Winchester; again, no particular improvement. Some Eley solids? Nope. Blazer solids? Unh-uh. Research led to conflicting claims about whether solids or hollow points did better, but I uncovered consensus about copper plated rounds' performing better; this info seems to have helped.

Anyway, the CCI copper-plated minimags do the best for me. Figuring that more energy imparted to the recoil might do the trick, I went for higher fps and bullet weight. The Minimags did pretty well, followed closely by their hollow point brothers. I did go higher with fps, in CCI's Velocitor, and finally CCI Stingers. (While shooting a mag of Stingers, a front toggle broke into 3 pieces. Bob's had a replacement for $35, so it's all fixed and working again; but I've backed off from the Velocitors and Stingers.)

Three mags came with the 2 pistols, all three factory 10-round originals. Each of the three displays progressive areas of wear in finish. The newest looking one works the best, with 9-10 out of 10 cycling and firing properly. The most used looking one is the worst, with mis-feeding just about every round, or 2-4 cycling ok. The mid-range wear third one performs better than the worst, not as well as the best.

By examining what was happening during cycling, I was able to check differences in performance of the mags. The best-working one was definitely less used than the others, and I think what makes it function better is a combination of things: 1)mag lips 2)spring strength/range 3)smoothness of function.

I used a needle file to smooth the mag's working edges and the top of the follower. Then I tweeked the lips so that the round is guided more precisely by the front ones--now the front part of the round passes thru them with minimal side play, and the round's flange rides up the front lips, as it appears it should. Undersides of the rear lips smoothed, no issues with round sitting too high or low.

Function of all three improved somewhat, but one still works better than the rest. This, I figured, is my goal--to make the rest behave like the best. So I've obtained several other mags at this point.

One is Erma NOS, its lips are cut and formed just like the first ones; however it is an 8-shot mag.
One is from Bob's, plastic follower, lips cut a little differently, spot welded construction, again 8-shot.
Two are NOS Triple K brand, 8-shot, plastic follower. Lips way different, very front, top edge a bit lower than originals; this allows contact of the bullet nose with the lower edge of the chamber. In this case, the spot welded seam doubles the material in the area I'd like to adjust, making tweeking difficult.

Theoretically the three originals' springs would be the same. All three other configurations' springs are slightly different in weight, strength, and/or range.

I'm trying to achieve at least two mags from this herd that function well in either gun. I think if I can sort out all the differences and define a combo of what works, I may very well be able to make this happen.

I've polished the feed ramps a little, and smoothed the sharp edges of the top and bottom of the rear end of the chamber where the HP's in particular tend to catch and either dig right in or shave a small crescent of lead from the side of the bullet's tip; this helped a little.

I've tweeked the lips of all of them to feed straight and close; this helped a little.

I'm contemplating putting the guts from one of the lesser functioning originals into the newest factory shell. This would combine a spring and follower setup with a set of feed lips that is not already bent out of shape.

In the realm of spring replacement/rehabilitation, is where my question comes. What is the technique for testing a spring's strength and range? What might be a source for replacement .22 mag springs of various specs?


I have not ordered an available spring kit for the action and firing pin, but think that this would not be necessary because that one mag works so well. The deficiencies lie for the most part with the remaining mags.

Thanks!

David Parker

[G.T.]

Hi Dave, there are several different measurements that you have to track, and some bench marks that you have to establish... first one, is wire diamater... second, new free length, (uncompressed as new)...third, pounds of force at 1" compressed, pounds of force at full compression....fourth, measure overall dia. of spring when in free length state...

Second group of measurements, first, free length after 20 complete cycles to solid, (measuring set) ... second, measure spring dia. after 20 complete cycles to solid, (again measuring set)... Third, pounds of force at full compression, ( measuring the effects of set) ... Find the best spring for your needs out of the test batches.. and then confine your future testing to using that spring... Best to you, til...lat'r...GT

[rhuff]

I read this thread with interest. I own 2 Erma "Carbine" model Lugers. One I purchased new, the other LNIB. I have owned them for many many years. I polished the feed ramps and chambers, plus deburred the underside of the feed lips. Both of my Ermas will function very nicely with Federal bulk, Winchester Wildcat, and a few others.

What is interesting, is that each Erma has one mag that came with it. You(or I), can NOT mix the mags, or one produces a jam-a-matic!! If my memory serves, one mag is a 7 round, and the other an 8 rounder.

I run my Ermas very "wet" with lube, but do not use high velocity ammo in them. They were made long before this HV ammo, and are just not built/sprung for it.

Good luck, and keep us informed.


Doc

[alanint]

The Erma Luger I bought used some time ago came with three extra magazines. When I examined these carefully, all three had different spine and feed lip configurations! So it seems that there were many different designs tried for this pistol. I could only get the magazine that came with the gun, plus one more, which was closest to this in feed lip design to work consistently in the gun. The other two were hit and miss.

[azlaw]

I have one of these things too that followed me home from a gun show, and I can't seem to leave it alone either. Sort of an irresistable challenge. Mine seems to actually stick open due to some sort of binding when wide open. The ammunition is Federal standard velocity, I will be experimenting with other rounds.

How many of our users out there will admit to having one of these things? Perhaps we can get enough technical information collected to crack the code on how to make them run reliably.

H

[ithacaartist]

Ah, yes, Henry understands what I mean. And what a challenge this is. Googling results, as I said, in a whole bunch of contradictory stuff--HP bullets v. solids, Federal v. Winchester v. Remington v. CCI, etc. Anecdotes from current and previous owners are either on the side of love or hate. Some kept theirs, some passed them on, some just threw them out!

For a pistol that cost $69.00 new, it's a challenge to find an offering for under $250. I recall a recent listing of an Et.22, the carbine version...frame was busted into about six pieces, but the guy was asking over $500 for the remaining parts. This would be a deal if one were assembling one of these from parts bought one at a time at full retail, but...

After all, it is a mechanical system, like all others in that respect. I don't believe in spooks, therefore I believe there is a real world fix, retrofit, or modification that will really help--since ruling out the possibility that a gun may be haunted! It's simply a mechanical challenge. It is made even more challenging because everything happens in a split second. I've fantasized the rental of a high speed camera to examine this mechanical sequence at a rate we can perceive: (Ah, I see...when x encounters y, the z happens.)

And I like the idea of a compilation of everything anyone has tried in order to clear these issues. Would it be appropriate to make a sticky, here in "Off Topic/Other Firearms"? Then, everyone interested could contribute tips and caveats to a list. I don't think I saw anything like this for the Ermas, even on the .22 rimfire forum.

Here's another thought about improving the feed: I found a company that makes the tooling to form metal bullet jackets from expended rimfire brass. .22 lr FMJ does actually exist, references to a South Africa company as the mfg, reputedly used by Israeli special forces after it was found too deadly for crowd/riot control, etc. Nobody reloads .22 rimfire, of course, but if a .22 FMJ were available, I think it would solve a lot of an Erma's feed issues because the noses would center better on the way to the chamber, and, due to the outside layer of brass, dig in a lot less on the edges they encounter on the way there. Just dreamin'...

DEP

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by G.T.

Hi Dave, there are several different measurements that you have to track, and some bench marks that you have to establish... ( measuring the effects of set) ... GT

GT--sounds a little involved, but not entirely daunting! Initially, I'll be measuring whatever springs are available in the mags I have, none that are new-new, just the very least-used mags. I was talking before about the mag springs; because you refer to diameter I'll bet you were referring to the round action/fp springs. But this will also translate to the square mag springs' data, right?
By "set", I'm presuming it refers to the o/c distance between individual coils (pitch), or is it something else?

They were made long before this HV ammo, and are just not built/sprung for it.

I agree, however in this case a little extra energy seems to do the trick. Might not be necessary in a carbine's longer barrel, which gives pressure for a tad longer, helping assure the action is fully cycling. The CCI Minimags are the lowest velocity I could find that offers a copper plated solid bullet. The fps rating for it is about 15% more than the regular CCI lr. I'll try the lr's again, but with lots of lube because the bare lead seems just too sticky and grabby. Since my initial trial with a silicone soaked mag, I've been adjusting and running things without lube. Friday, I tried a 'wet' mag again--after the lips were adjusted--and reliability was again increased noticeably--once for the adjustment, and again for the lubrication! I think I'll order a spring kit from Bob's and experiment to see what kind of difference they might make.

[rhuff]

On another forum(Sig Forum) a fella was having a terrible time trying to get his new Sig Mosquito .22 semiauto to perform anywhere near normal. He lubed the .22 cartridges(lightly) and said it made a world of difference. Just a thought...

My Erma "carbines" will run with the CCI MiniMags, but I fear that they would lead to battereing if used too often. I am elated that both of them love the "cheap stuff....Federal Bulk". You may have a point concerning barrel length and recoil pulse.

I have been tempted to purchase a couple more mags for my two Ermas, but wonder if I would just be throwing money away. I guess it is a crap shoot....,like purchasing mags for my DWM.

[ithacaartist]

Monday afternoon I tried standard velocity CCI .22 lr rn, the result being that they simply refused to cycle the action fully, leaving the next round sitting in the mag. Often, the pistol did not cycle thoroughly enough to c*ck. The Mini-Mags continue to work well, at least 90%.

rhuff, I am also concerned that higher velocity rounds might do my pistol harm with too much energy. However, ammo available today may actually be key in alleviating the Erma's woes, since problems of this kind go way back to when the gun was first made. It may be that the little extra oomph was part of something the design needed all along to make it more dependable. However, the duration of the recoil pulse is something that should be considered as well as its amplitude. Slower-moving bullet=longer-lasting pulse? Somehow, this is working both ends against the middle. To make the experiment complete, I should some sub-sonic match/target rounds. These would be gentler on the mechanism, I think.

Bullet weight is another factor. The Mini-Mags are 40 grains, like the standard lr., and have performed better in feeding and cycling than all others so far. A higher weight bullet would increase chamber and barrel pressures more than a lighter one, due to its greater momentum. It would also increase the duration of the recoil pulse, since the slug would stay in the gun a little longer. A lighter bullet with a proportionally lighter bullet would do the same, the difference being in the total amount of energy available on firing. I'm not sure if the available .22 loads as yet untried would offer a slower-burning powder, which would also increase the length of recoil pulse. Anyone have suggestions as to any other stuff I might try in it? I think it should be a copper plated solid, less than 40 grains.

[TheRomanhistorian]

Hi Ithacaartist,

I look forward to your experiments with the subsonic ammunition. I just purchased a KGP69 .22LR Luger imitation and was thinking of ammunition so I'm glad to see the CCI Mini Mags do work and I'm curious about trying out your trick with the magazine.

Though I'm not sure how much the range would appreciate the mess I leave with that much lube! May I ask whether your standard LR was 40 gr. as well or not and which brands you tried?

[ithacaartist]

Some of the standard was 40 gr., some 36 gr. Tried Winchester, Remington, Ely, Federal, Blazer...basically picked up a 50 box of anything I could find locally, and some online for better prices.
Nah, after squirting silicone lube all directions thru the follower button slot, I just shook the mag like a fever thermometer to remove the excess. I guess I made the process sound juicier than it actually was.
I haven't had a chance to p/u any subsonic yet but will definitely report any experience.
Right now I'm jazzed up because I won an auction this weekend of a post war Erma .22 conversion kit for real Lugers! I may have done pretty well for hammer price. I may be forced to set all else aside for a while after the kit arrives, to play around with it.

[TheRomanhistorian]

I'm going to pick mine up tomorrow and then some of this CCI Tactical .22 LR which is less hot than Mini Mags but hotter than standard loads and then some standard .22 loads just to see how they stack up in the pistol.

Nice auction victory, there. Those had me intrigued but I'll stick to this Erma for now if I want a .22 and I do not have another P-08 to tinker with.

[Olle]

David,

Thanks for the info, these guns are finnicky (to say the least) and it seems like you have the patience of Job tinkering with it. One of the major problems with these guns seems to be that the toggle action doesn't really serve much of a purpose, they incorporated it just for looks and getting the proper balance between the springs seems to be more a matter of luck than engineering.

I don't know how many hours I have spent fooling with my LA22 and I was about to put it in a dark corner of the safe to forever rest in peace, but I might pick it up again and try the magazine mods. Can't let the gun win...

[rhuff]

I agree with Olle, if I have a gun that does not function correctly, it drives me crazy. I will work on it for a while, if no success, I put it away and try to forget about it, but it just keeps eating at me. God only knows how much time I have involved it getting my 1921 DWM to work with both my original 30 Luger upper end, and a 1940 barreled receiver in 9mm. Also, to get them both to work with my reloads!!

My Ermas both worked 100% last time that I had them out, maybe I should leave them in the safe, and just "know" that they would function reliably if ask to do so.

I have so many projects that need my attention, there just aren't enough hours in a day!!

[spartacus38]

I owned the pistols and the carbine.I gave up trying to get them work.
Bob

[ithacaartist]

I'm off to the Post Office in a half hour or so to pick up an insured package, which, I hope, is the conversion kit. And now I'm looking for those tactical .22 rounds to see if they will work. As Michael pointed out to me, they are 1200 fps while the Mini-Mags are 1235; both are Cu plated round nose 40 gr. bullet. I'd expect the tacticals to be a little gentler on the system, but must try them out first to see if they're energetic enough. I expect we'll be hearing fairly soon how they worked in Michael's KGP.