Seal/Emblem Question

02-05-2002, 10:48 AM

I have a Mauser byf '41 P.08 with a 3" barrel, ser # 4133. All parts including mag are same ser #. This pistol was obtained 31 years ago during a military tour in Italy. I was given the pistol from an Italian officer who told me the story "that it belonged to a SS Lt. Colonel, who had escaped to Austria, after WWII, and then down into Italy. He remained in Italy a number of years working with the Facist movement". This pistol has an interesting emblem/seal mark that I have never seen on any other weapon. It is a gold, approx 3/8" in diameter, 1/16" in height circular. The gold seal has a swastika with a reath around the outer edge. I have been to many gun shows and asked about this with little results in trying to detemine the significance/importance of the emblem.

tom · 02-05-2002, 12:35 PM

Hi Bill,

The insignia sounds like a Nazi party membership pin; it was undoubtedly added to the piece by an owner somewhere during the pistols life; ie, it ain't factory original. Stuff like this, while interesting and "character enhancing" generally detracts from a piece's collector appeal.

Hope this helps,

Tom

02-05-2002, 01:53 PM

Thanks for the quick feedback. As a follow-on, would you remove the seal or leave it in place. I have no intentions of selling the piece. It's a beautiful bit of history that will be passed to the kids.

tom · 02-05-2002, 03:10 PM

I would leave it in place if you are keeping the piece; as I said, stuff like this adds character.

FWIW, I have a beautiful C96 'broom that has a lovely sterling silver disc inletted into the right grip. In the center of the disc is the name of the Army Captain who brought it back as well as his unit and, around the circumference is engraved the campaigns in which he fought. Since I also have the "bring back" papers on the gun, I think it is a very unique piece of history that can be positively tied to one individual GI.

I also own the von Ribbentrop Luger, but thats a totally different story.

Tom

Thor · 02-05-2002, 06:22 PM

Mr Armstrong is being kind of modest about one of the head pieces of his collection....The von Ribbentrop Luger, what a coup to own that one. It is the VERY FIRST Luger in Jan Still's "Weimar Lugers" on page "i" of the Frontispiece Section. von Ribbentrop was in involved in both wars, and was German Foreign Minister from 1938-1945. Congrats Tom on a very cool Luger. ~Thor~

tom · 02-05-2002, 07:32 PM

Ted,

It is a very important piece of history and the provenance is impeccable; I am going to do an article about von Rib, this gun and its "other" owners for publication if I can ever find the time. I have managed to find a pic of vonRib in uniform as Foreign Minister on the Western front during the invasion of France. Unlike most senior officers who wore PPKs, in this pic, he is wearing a Luger. I have no doubt, but also no proof, it is this one.

Tom

Herb · 02-06-2002, 07:21 PM

Tom, there are a couple of good pictures of Ribbentrop at

http://home.att.net/~SSPzHJ/VRibbentrop.html

If you want some more info on him I can get you some more URL's.

Thor · 02-07-2002, 01:43 AM

Herb, this appears to be Joachim von Ribbentrop's son Rudolf that is featured in the article, interesting reading.

From the Article "His father, Joachim Von Ribbentrop, was charged with crimes against humanity and was executed at Nuremburg. Rudolf Von Ribbentrop survived the war, and is still alive today." I believe the Luger was owned by the father. ~Thorster~~~~

02-05-2002, 10:48 AM	#1
Bill O Guest Posts: n/a	Seal/Emblem Question I have a Mauser byf '41 P.08 with a 3" barrel, ser # 4133. All parts including mag are same ser #. This pistol was obtained 31 years ago during a military tour in Italy. I was given the pistol from an Italian officer who told me the story "that it belonged to a SS Lt. Colonel, who had escaped to Austria, after WWII, and then down into Italy. He remained in Italy a number of years working with the Facist movement". This pistol has an interesting emblem/seal mark that I have never seen on any other weapon. It is a gold, approx 3/8" in diameter, 1/16" in height circular. The gold seal has a swastika with a reath around the outer edge. I have been to many gun shows and asked about this with little results in trying to detemine the significance/importance of the emblem.

02-05-2002, 12:35 PM	#2
tom User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 269 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Re: Seal/Emblem Question Hi Bill, The insignia sounds like a Nazi party membership pin; it was undoubtedly added to the piece by an owner somewhere during the pistols life; ie, it ain't factory original. Stuff like this, while interesting and "character enhancing" generally detracts from a piece's collector appeal. Hope this helps, Tom

02-05-2002, 01:53 PM	#3
Bill O Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Seal/Emblem Question Thanks for the quick feedback. As a follow-on, would you remove the seal or leave it in place. I have no intentions of selling the piece. It's a beautiful bit of history that will be passed to the kids.

02-05-2002, 03:10 PM	#4
tom User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 269 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Re: Seal/Emblem Question I would leave it in place if you are keeping the piece; as I said, stuff like this adds character. FWIW, I have a beautiful C96 'broom that has a lovely sterling silver disc inletted into the right grip. In the center of the disc is the name of the Army Captain who brought it back as well as his unit and, around the circumference is engraved the campaigns in which he fought. Since I also have the "bring back" papers on the gun, I think it is a very unique piece of history that can be positively tied to one individual GI. I also own the von Ribbentrop Luger, but thats a totally different story. Tom

02-05-2002, 06:22 PM	#5
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: The "Other Story" Mr Armstrong is being kind of modest about one of the head pieces of his collection....The von Ribbentrop Luger, what a coup to own that one. It is the VERY FIRST Luger in Jan Still's "Weimar Lugers" on page "i" of the Frontispiece Section. von Ribbentrop was in involved in both wars, and was German Foreign Minister from 1938-1945. Congrats Tom on a very cool Luger. ~Thor~

02-05-2002, 07:32 PM	#6
tom User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 269 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	Re: The "Other Story" Ted, It is a very important piece of history and the provenance is impeccable; I am going to do an article about von Rib, this gun and its "other" owners for publication if I can ever find the time. I have managed to find a pic of vonRib in uniform as Foreign Minister on the Western front during the invasion of France. Unlike most senior officers who wore PPKs, in this pic, he is wearing a Luger. I have no doubt, but also no proof, it is this one. Tom

02-06-2002, 07:21 PM	#7
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: The "Other Story" Tom, there are a couple of good pictures of Ribbentrop at http://home.att.net/~SSPzHJ/VRibbentrop.html If you want some more info on him I can get you some more URL's.

02-07-2002, 01:43 AM	#8
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: The "Other Story" Herb, this appears to be Joachim von Ribbentrop's son Rudolf that is featured in the article, interesting reading. From the Article "His father, Joachim Von Ribbentrop, was charged with crimes against humanity and was executed at Nuremburg. Rudolf Von Ribbentrop survived the war, and is still alive today." I believe the Luger was owned by the father. ~Thorster~~~~