Spandau Lugers

Herb · 01-31-2002, 04:08 PM

This topic came up earlier on the forum and somewhere in the cobwebs of my mental filing system I vaguely remember reading about them. Both Datig and Jones hint to the possibility of the existance of a few, but doubt that they are authentic. Walter, in his book The Luger Story goes into a little more detail. Year is 1918, most would be numbered in the 12-201 grouping, but no.12 is dated 1917.

They (Spandau) Lugers are questionable due to the Erfurt-style proof marks on them. He further states that only four sets of Luger manufacturing lines were produced, one for DWM originally in Charlottenburg, later moved to Wittenau in 1916 and then to the Mauser-Werke factory in Oberndorf in 1930. The second set went to Erfurt in 1909-10 and was sold to Simpson in 1920, and was acquired by Krieghoff in the mid 1930's. The only other line was installed in Bern Switzerland in 1917. (NOTE this accounts for only THREE production lines, not four). He states that following the war no production facilities were found at Spandau. Since Spandau was the HQ of the Revisions-Commission a few Lugers were assembled there using parts retreived from other pistols that had failed to pass proof. Most will be based upon DWM made receivers and should have the crown/T/bar or crown/S, on the right side and some may have the crown/RC mark of the Revisions-Commission. Some may be encountered with a 'crown' over the word SPANDAU on the toggle link. At best it would appear that any Spandau Luger is probably a 'parts' gun as no real evidence exists that were 'manufactured' there. Sure wonder where that fourth Luger assembly line went!!

John Sabato · 01-31-2002, 04:39 PM

GÃ?Â©rard Henrotin, in his "Luger Producers" E-book has a short chapter on Spandau Lugers. This graphic detail below has been screen cropped from one of his excellent illustration example of a Spandau toggle link.

Let me quote a couple of GÃ?Â©rard's paragraphs from his chapter on the subject:

"During the sixties, some American Luger collectors mentioned the existence of Lugers whose toggle was struck with a Spandau crowned logo. That raised a controversy between European and US collectors on the authenticity of these pistols.

These pieces, however, are very scarce. The so-called "production" is estimated at about 200 pistols. The lowest serial number reported being "12" with a 1917 chamber date, and the highest number being "177" with a chamber date of 1918. The extremely low quantity might lead one to reject the assertion that they are true Spandau products. All the experts who had an opportunity to closely examine these pistols, mentioned the presence of typical ERFURT parts."

I highly recommend this e-book as good Luger reading and the illustrations are 1st class!

regards,

John

http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Spand01crop.jpg

Herb · 01-31-2002, 05:36 PM

John Sabato · 02-01-2002, 12:21 PM

I'm gettin too slow in my old age, still looks like three plants to me. One-Berlin goes to Oberndorf, two-Efurt to Simpson Suhl, three-Bern Switzerland. Now it's Oberndorf, Suhl, and Bern, still missing #4.

John Sabato · 02-01-2002, 06:18 PM

Maybe someone else can fill us both in about production equipment inventory. I know Krieghoff assembled and finished Lugers, but I am not sure if they could produce them from scratch...

anyone know?

-John

lugerholsterrepair · 02-02-2002, 04:09 PM

John, Randall Gibson makes a very good case for Krieghoff having made most of their own pistols from scratch. His book, The Krieghoff Parabellum is a case study in why this must be true. He believes the old Simson machinery went to Krieghoff. Also Krieghoff made some alloy frames as pre production prototypes. They were a full fledged manufacturer of the luger pistol and were not made up from parts. Krieghoff actually took on the Luger pistol project to make Hermann Goering satisfied in the hopes of aquiring the more lucrative aircraft machine gun contracts they knew to be forthcoming. If you ever come accross Randall Gibsons book for a reasonable price you will find it a wealth of information. The Russians took the Krieghoff factory in Suhl and actually blew it to pieces so no records nor machinery are left for study. Jerry Burney

01-31-2002, 04:08 PM	#1
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Spandau Lugers This topic came up earlier on the forum and somewhere in the cobwebs of my mental filing system I vaguely remember reading about them. Both Datig and Jones hint to the possibility of the existance of a few, but doubt that they are authentic. Walter, in his book The Luger Story goes into a little more detail. Year is 1918, most would be numbered in the 12-201 grouping, but no.12 is dated 1917. They (Spandau) Lugers are questionable due to the Erfurt-style proof marks on them. He further states that only four sets of Luger manufacturing lines were produced, one for DWM originally in Charlottenburg, later moved to Wittenau in 1916 and then to the Mauser-Werke factory in Oberndorf in 1930. The second set went to Erfurt in 1909-10 and was sold to Simpson in 1920, and was acquired by Krieghoff in the mid 1930's. The only other line was installed in Bern Switzerland in 1917. (NOTE this accounts for only THREE production lines, not four). He states that following the war no production facilities were found at Spandau. Since Spandau was the HQ of the Revisions-Commission a few Lugers were assembled there using parts retreived from other pistols that had failed to pass proof. Most will be based upon DWM made receivers and should have the crown/T/bar or crown/S, on the right side and some may have the crown/RC mark of the Revisions-Commission. Some may be encountered with a 'crown' over the word SPANDAU on the toggle link. At best it would appear that any Spandau Luger is probably a 'parts' gun as no real evidence exists that were 'manufactured' there. Sure wonder where that fourth Luger assembly line went!!

01-31-2002, 04:39 PM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Re: Spandau Lugers GÃ?Â©rard Henrotin, in his "Luger Producers" E-book has a short chapter on Spandau Lugers. This graphic detail below has been screen cropped from one of his excellent illustration example of a Spandau toggle link. Let me quote a couple of GÃ?Â©rard's paragraphs from his chapter on the subject: "During the sixties, some American Luger collectors mentioned the existence of Lugers whose toggle was struck with a Spandau crowned logo. That raised a controversy between European and US collectors on the authenticity of these pistols. These pieces, however, are very scarce. The so-called "production" is estimated at about 200 pistols. The lowest serial number reported being "12" with a 1917 chamber date, and the highest number being "177" with a chamber date of 1918. The extremely low quantity might lead one to reject the assertion that they are true Spandau products. All the experts who had an opportunity to closely examine these pistols, mentioned the presence of typical ERFURT parts." I highly recommend this e-book as good Luger reading and the illustrations are 1st class! regards, John http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Spand01crop.jpg

01-31-2002, 05:36 PM	#3
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Looks like a real one!(EOM) (EOM)

02-01-2002, 12:21 PM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	Luger Production assembly line answer. Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Luger Production assembly line answer. I'm gettin too slow in my old age, still looks like three plants to me. One-Berlin goes to Oberndorf, two-Efurt to Simpson Suhl, three-Bern Switzerland. Now it's Oberndorf, Suhl, and Bern, still missing #4.

02-01-2002, 06:18 PM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,156 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,308 Times in 1,098 Posts	KRIEGHOFF is my guess. Maybe someone else can fill us both in about production equipment inventory. I know Krieghoff assembled and finished Lugers, but I am not sure if they could produce them from scratch... anyone know? -John

02-02-2002, 04:09 PM	#7
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	Re: KRIEGHOFF is my guess. John, Randall Gibson makes a very good case for Krieghoff having made most of their own pistols from scratch. His book, The Krieghoff Parabellum is a case study in why this must be true. He believes the old Simson machinery went to Krieghoff. Also Krieghoff made some alloy frames as pre production prototypes. They were a full fledged manufacturer of the luger pistol and were not made up from parts. Krieghoff actually took on the Luger pistol project to make Hermann Goering satisfied in the hopes of aquiring the more lucrative aircraft machine gun contracts they knew to be forthcoming. If you ever come accross Randall Gibsons book for a reasonable price you will find it a wealth of information. The Russians took the Krieghoff factory in Suhl and actually blew it to pieces so no records nor machinery are left for study. Jerry Burney