C96 broomhandle question markings newbie

debo4747 · 06-13-2010, 01:57 PM

im looking at a c96 that has some interesting markings that are throwing me off a bit ... it seems broom handles range from 500-5000 dollars and i want to be sure if im shelling out this kind of cash.................ok the gun is dead mint with 98% blue 23 ring walnut grips and Von Lengerke & Detmold new york on one side and the usual wafenbrink on the other .........my question does this import mark hurt the value of the gun and what does it mean .? ........was this gun imported post war or whats the story behind it >? thanks in advance guys

Edward Tinker · 06-13-2010, 02:25 PM

Well, I am sure there are some C96 collectors here, although a lot more luger collectors.

As you say, $500-$5000; with all collecting, you should buy books and learn as much as you can before spending money and possibly making a mistake.

The marking of the Detmold NY, I don;t think you'd call it a "import" marking, and if it is, then collectability to most folks is just not there unless a very rare C96.

Ed

George Anderson · 06-13-2010, 02:34 PM

The von Lengerke & Detmold marking adds considerably to its value.

debo4747 · 06-13-2010, 03:02 PM

thank you , and what was the significance to this marking

George Anderson · 06-13-2010, 03:46 PM

I believe that vL&D were the US agents for Mauser in New York.

debo4747 · 06-13-2010, 04:14 PM

so the gun was imported here and stayed here ? or went back over seas? the gun has nazi markings on it and im just trying to track how new york comes into play

Jack Lawman · 06-13-2010, 05:17 PM

I believe the VL&D were an import mark, but not in the current sense. My guess is the VL&D mark were more of a "brand" marking. VL&D would have ordered the gun from Mauser with the marking. The presence of nazi marks wouldn't be a neat fit with the guns history. Anything is possible with the one off example, but I'd be suspicious about the pistol.

Pictures would be most helpful.

I'm no expert, you'll have to wait until a more advanced C96 collector jumps in.

Jack

sheepherder · 06-13-2010, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by debo4747

so the gun was imported here and stayed here ? or went back over seas? the gun has nazi markings on it and im just trying to track how new york comes into play

What kind of Nazi markings??? You'd better post some pics...It's like trying to diagnose what's wrong with your car over the phone...

George Anderson · 06-13-2010, 05:31 PM

If it's marked vL&D and has nazi markings it is "bad juju"; something is rotten...

It can not be legitimate with both. How about some photos?

alvin · 06-13-2010, 06:05 PM

vL&D were imported prewar -- pre WWI.

You may try to find its s/n here. They have original vL&D records from 1901. Since you mentioned it carries usual WAFFENFABRIK marking, it's post 1901 and should be on the list.

http://www.griffinhowe.com/Research-...al.cfm?make=32

alvin · 06-13-2010, 06:19 PM

vL&D stamp itself was applied after the gun had been finished. Halo and discoloration around the stamp is not optional. The way NYC spelled was weird "NEW-YORK"... there was a dash between NEW and YORK. Is that a German way to spell this city, or an American way of that era?

Norme · 06-13-2010, 06:58 PM

Hi Alvin, It was an American way. I'm enclosing a rather poor photo of the address on a Colt 1860 Army. Sorry about the picture, I no longer own the gun and this is the only view I have on file. Regards, Norm

debo4747 · 06-13-2010, 08:34 PM

thanks guys for all the help...........no pictures but this is a word of mouth transaction in progress , i havent seen the gun yet but im going out there soon , ........he doesnt know much about guns and stated "nazi" proof marks ..........ill have to look at it and make a judgement off that .....................whats theball park value of a mint c96 with the new york stampings? no holster/ stock

Fazer · 06-13-2010, 11:02 PM

Randy Bessler at http://www.collectorfirearms.org/ has one for sale.Same as you describe.

Jack Lawman · 06-13-2010, 11:25 PM

Go to this page on the lugerforum:
http://www.lugerforum.com/lugermarkings.html

Copy and print all the "Proof Marks" pages (the six of them). This will help you determine if the marks belong or you have something to worry about. Your seller may not know the difference between imperial and nazi marks. Then again, he might. Good Luck!

Jack

Olle · 06-14-2010, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Lawman

Go to this page on the lugerforum:
http://www.lugerforum.com/lugermarkings.html

Copy and print all the "Proof Marks" pages (the six of them). This will help you determine if the marks belong or you have something to worry about. Your seller may not know the difference between imperial and nazi marks. Then again, he might. Good Luck!

Jack

I'm not an expert on proof marks at all, but that's entirely possible. For example, the "Eagle over N" proof mark (# 48 on http://www.lugerforum.com/lugermarkings/proof-4.html ) is often mistaken for a Nazi proof mark. I have also seen it misrepresented as a Nazi marking, in order to increase the value of a gun.

Aaron · 06-14-2010, 10:16 AM

E/N should not appear on any C96. This marking only appeared starting in 1940.

debo4747 · 06-16-2010, 08:39 PM

ok guys i found out and saw the firearm today ......serial number 35892 ........any idea of year?

Nomadr · 06-16-2010, 09:42 PM

Check out this site for your date!

http://www.g6csy.net/c96/database.html

Bob

alvin · 06-17-2010, 03:49 AM

35892, Early transitional small ring. I would think it's 1902. It's in vL&D list, that's good news. If you pay them $50, they will send you a copy of its original selling record. Thanks vL&D imported many shallow milled LRH and transitional SRH, so many of these two scarce variations (from production volume point of view) were preserved in the USA, and not easy to find in other parts of the world.

06-13-2010, 01:57 PM	#1
debo4747 User Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 16 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	C96 broomhandle question markings newbie im looking at a c96 that has some interesting markings that are throwing me off a bit ... it seems broom handles range from 500-5000 dollars and i want to be sure if im shelling out this kind of cash.................ok the gun is dead mint with 98% blue 23 ring walnut grips and Von Lengerke & Detmold new york on one side and the usual wafenbrink on the other .........my question does this import mark hurt the value of the gun and what does it mean .? ........was this gun imported post war or whats the story behind it >? thanks in advance guys

06-13-2010, 02:25 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,960 Thanks: 2,062 Thanked 4,591 Times in 2,114 Posts	Well, I am sure there are some C96 collectors here, although a lot more luger collectors. As you say, $500-$5000; with all collecting, you should buy books and learn as much as you can before spending money and possibly making a mistake. The marking of the Detmold NY, I don;t think you'd call it a "import" marking, and if it is, then collectability to most folks is just not there unless a very rare C96. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-13-2010, 05:17 PM	#7
Jack Lawman User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Near NYC Posts: 428 Thanks: 30 Thanked 64 Times in 37 Posts	I believe the VL&D were an import mark, but not in the current sense. My guess is the VL&D mark were more of a "brand" marking. VL&D would have ordered the gun from Mauser with the marking. The presence of nazi marks wouldn't be a neat fit with the guns history. Anything is possible with the one off example, but I'd be suspicious about the pistol. Pictures would be most helpful. I'm no expert, you'll have to wait until a more advanced C96 collector jumps in. Jack __________________ Why do you guys hate black circles so much?

06-13-2010, 06:58 PM	#12
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,607 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Alvin, It was an American way. I'm enclosing a rather poor photo of the address on a Colt 1860 Army. Sorry about the picture, I no longer own the gun and this is the only view I have on file. Regards, Norm Attached Thumbnails

06-13-2010, 11:02 PM	#14
Fazer Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Perth, West Oz Posts: 93 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts	Randy Bessler at http://www.collectorfirearms.org/ has one for sale.Same as you describe. Last edited by Fazer; 06-13-2010 at 11:02 PM. Reason: spelling

06-13-2010, 02:34 PM	#3
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	The von Lengerke & Detmold marking adds considerably to its value.

06-13-2010, 03:02 PM	#4
debo4747 User Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 16 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	thank you , and what was the significance to this marking

06-13-2010, 03:46 PM	#5
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	I believe that vL&D were the US agents for Mauser in New York.

06-13-2010, 04:14 PM	#6
debo4747 User Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 16 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	so the gun was imported here and stayed here ? or went back over seas? the gun has nazi markings on it and im just trying to track how new york comes into play

06-13-2010, 05:31 PM	#9
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	If it's marked vL&D and has nazi markings it is "bad juju"; something is rotten... It can not be legitimate with both. How about some photos?

06-13-2010, 06:05 PM	#10
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	vL&D were imported prewar -- pre WWI. You may try to find its s/n here. They have original vL&D records from 1901. Since you mentioned it carries usual WAFFENFABRIK marking, it's post 1901 and should be on the list. http://www.griffinhowe.com/Research-...al.cfm?make=32

06-13-2010, 06:19 PM	#11
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	vL&D stamp itself was applied after the gun had been finished. Halo and discoloration around the stamp is not optional. The way NYC spelled was weird "NEW-YORK"... there was a dash between NEW and YORK. Is that a German way to spell this city, or an American way of that era?

06-13-2010, 08:34 PM	#13
debo4747 User Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 16 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	thanks guys for all the help...........no pictures but this is a word of mouth transaction in progress , i havent seen the gun yet but im going out there soon , ........he doesnt know much about guns and stated "nazi" proof marks ..........ill have to look at it and make a judgement off that .....................whats theball park value of a mint c96 with the new york stampings? no holster/ stock

06-13-2010, 11:25 PM	#15
Jack Lawman User Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Near NYC Posts: 428 Thanks: 30 Thanked 64 Times in 37 Posts	Go to this page on the lugerforum: http://www.lugerforum.com/lugermarkings.html Copy and print all the "Proof Marks" pages (the six of them). This will help you determine if the marks belong or you have something to worry about. Your seller may not know the difference between imperial and nazi marks. Then again, he might. Good Luck! Jack __________________ Why do you guys hate black circles so much?

06-14-2010, 10:16 AM	#17
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	E/N should not appear on any C96. This marking only appeared starting in 1940.

06-16-2010, 08:39 PM	#18
debo4747 User Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 16 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	ok guys i found out and saw the firearm today ......serial number 35892 ........any idea of year?

06-16-2010, 09:42 PM	#19
Nomadr Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 276 Thanks: 16 Thanked 28 Times in 22 Posts	Check out this site for your date! http://www.g6csy.net/c96/database.html Bob

06-17-2010, 03:49 AM	#20
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	35892, Early transitional small ring. I would think it's 1902. It's in vL&D list, that's good news. If you pay them $50, they will send you a copy of its original selling record. Thanks vL&D imported many shallow milled LRH and transitional SRH, so many of these two scarce variations (from production volume point of view) were preserved in the USA, and not easy to find in other parts of the world.