Newbie needs advice

[jeffjmr]

Picked up this tired looking 1920 DWM police with the intention of making it my son's shooter.

Now having second thoughts about messing it up, so would like some advice as to whether it is most valuable as a shooter, restorer, or left alone.

Broken catch, questionable finish on side plate, later grips, FXO non-matching mag and double stamped second digit of receiver s/n noted. Extractor is worn, but otherwise the bolt parts and receiver are tight. I have replaced a broken catch spring and missing trigger lever pin (someone cobbled in a roll pin) otherwise all else is apparently original. Not the first I've seen with no serial number on the barrel, and hope the experts can comment on that as well as other notable characteristics.

Not sure how many images I can post but mag release, bolt stop, firing pin, safety. trigger and all bolt parts "match" (not the FXO mag). The rest can be seen in the photos.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Jeff

[Ron Smith]

Hi Jeff,

Welcome to the forum.

All things considered, I would consider it a shooter. The serial number appears to have been over stamped on the upper. The barrel has the bore gauge which indicates that it is an original barrel, but it is mismatched.

The overall finish would hurt any collector value also. Once the finish is below 80%, or so, the value is deminished. The only exception is that if it's a rare variation, or had rare unit markings.

I would shoot it, and enjoy it.

Ron

[Ice]

Welcome! It looks looks it would be a great shooter with a couple of parts replaced. Mec Gar makes fine mags if you have trouble with the one that came with it.

Charlie

[lugerholsterrepair]

This is a Police with a Mag Safety...Has it been clipped or is it all there?

I'm surprised Ron missed that!

Jerry Burney

[Ron Wood]

Jerry,
It has been clipped. You can see it clearly in the 4th photo.

[Don M]

Jeff,

I don't think it has any bearing on what you decide to do with the pistol but, for what it's worth, it was issued to the Schutzpolizei command for Altona-Wandsbeck, Prussian suburbs of Hamburg, and probably remained there through WWII. The grip strap marking S.Sch.I.1183. is interesting because it has the largest weapon number I have observed from this command (HWIS, Table 9-5).

I am not sure the barrel is the original. The 3 on the bottom makes me believe this was a replacement barrel manufactured by Simson in 1923 and probably installed by the Berlin Police Armory later in the 20s or 30s. Is there a PTV/E or TP/E stamped on the right side of the barrel? The barrel may also have Simpon acceptance stamps such as E/6 or E/33.

For my database, would you tell me the letter suffix, if any, below the serial number on the front of the frame?

[jeffjmr]

Thanks all for your helpful responses.

Here are some more pics that answer some of your questions.

I am curious about the barrel; it's patina matches the rest of the gun perfectly, and the witness mark sure looks like it was made in one stroke. I don't see the E/33 but the eagle with a 33 is shown in one of the pictures below.

Looks like a cursive "n" below the frame s/n.

I am not sure about the mag safety as I have never seen one before this one. Where would the "clip" be evident? Is there supposed to be a part that protrudes into the frame hole near the top?

Thanks again.

[Don M]

Jeff, thanks for the additional information.

The barrel is definitely a Simson replacement barrel. In the absence of a PTV/eagle or TP/eagle, it seems likely that the barrel was replaced by Simson sometime in the mid-20s.

You are correct about the suffix. The n-suffix 1920 DWMs are a bit of a puzzle since this letter was very much out of sequence (ns, a, b, n). However, there is ample evidence that DWM produced a full series of these in 1920.

The part of the mag safety that has been clipped off is the piece that rotated behind the trigger to prevent it being pulled when the mag was removed. These proved to be a bad idea and nearly all of them were deactivated this way or completely removed. Your gun still has all but the trigger block.

[jeffjmr]

If you look at picture number 8 in the first post there is an eagle on the right rear side of the barrel. The small mark above the eagle does not appear to be a character ofany kind. It looks like a random pit though it is quite deep and sharp.

So as a shooter, is there any harm/benefit to a careful refinish/reblue?

Regards,
Jeff

[Don M]

I have enhanced the photo and the stamp on the right side of the barrel is definitely the proof of the Berlin Police Armory and appears to be the TP for the Technische Polizeischule. This means the rebarraling was performed by the Armory in 1935 or later (HWIS, Chapter 12) using a barrel manufactured by Simson in 1923.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by jeffjmr

I don't see the E/33 but the eagle with a 33 is shown in one of the pictures below.

I believe that "E/33" is shorthand by the more knowledgeable (than me, I mean) here for "Eagle over 33"...

[jeffjmr]

Originally Posted by postino

I believe that "E/33" is shorthand by the more knowledgeable (than me, I mean) here for "Eagle over 33"...

Doh!

Thanks for so diplomatically pointing that out. Lots to learn!

[Don M]

Originally Posted by jeffjmr

So as a shooter, is there any harm/benefit to a careful refinish/reblue?

Regards,
Jeff

In my opinion, there would be no harm to the historical record provided that the markings are preserved.

[lugerholsterrepair]

If this were my pistol I would be happy to clean and oil it . It has considerable blue so refinishing it will be expensive, possibly ruining markings and will not improve the pistol any.

Personally... I will not touch any pistol that has been reblued. If rebluing is necessary and if done right.. it can be virtually undetectable...That's the expensive kind. If Bubba down the street does it you will regret it.

Jerry Burney

[jeffjmr]

Could someone be so kind as to tell me what type of magazine this model should have?

An FXO it came with is pictured. But should a 1920 police model have a blued or steel mag, wood or aluminum bottom? Any other markings I should look for to match up an appropriate mag for the time period?

Thanks in advance.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Jeff, This pistol would probably have been issued with a rolled steel mag body in the white and a wooden pull. I would guess though when it was conscripted into the Police force it might have aquired the same mag but with an aluminum pull.

I am sure Ed T. Or Don M. will jump in with some expert advice.

If you are going to use it as a shooter I suggest you aquire either a MecGar Mag for this purpose or better yet, GT.. our Forum mag tech expert might have a rebuilt/new spring mag that is proper for your pistol and would be much more period correct.

Jerry Burney

[FNorm]

I have one similar. 1920, Same proofs, no sear safety. 3083a. All matching except for the breech block, and mag. It's a fine shooter.

FN

[jeffjmr]

Thanks, Jerry.

Turns out I have just such a mag that came with my other Luger. I did indeed get a Mec-gar for shooting, though I have not shot this police model yet, and may choose not to.

THanks for the helpful reply.

Jeff