Lugers issued to enlisted men in WW2?

Hoyt Weathers · 05-01-2007, 01:33 PM

My older brother captured a German enlisted man in Germany late in the war. The man was wearing a belt holding a repaired WW1 holster with a WW1 Luger inside engraved on the front grip strap with the unit I.D.. The belt buckle has a double runne stamp on the back.
It is my contention that my brother captured an officer in an enlisted man's uniform.

Were Lugers issued to enlisted men in WW2?

Your opinions will be appreciated.

Regards,
Hoyt Weathers

Navy · 05-01-2007, 02:04 PM

hello Hoyt,

Yes, Lugers were issued to enlisted men. In fact, only to enlisted men. Officers were expected to purchase their small arms.

Tom A

Hoyt Weathers · 05-01-2007, 02:23 PM

Thank you for your reply Tom.
What mystifies me is the double rune on the back of the buckle. I guess that mark could belong to either an enlisted man or an officer.

GerColctor · 05-01-2007, 08:33 PM

Hoyte

Why do you think the holder of the Luger when captured by your brother was an officer in an enlisted man's uniform? Check out the markings on the backside of the military buckles and that may help you identify the "double runes". Is this buckle square or round shaped?

Joe

George Anderson · 05-02-2007, 07:49 AM

Depending on the grip strap unit marking your brother may well have captured a cop.

Steinar · 05-02-2007, 09:38 AM

Hello Hoyt, good to hear from you

Is it the 'Got mit uns' buckle you asked about some time ago?

Hoyt Weathers · 05-03-2007, 12:23 PM

To Morgan Kane:

Yes, it is the same buckle I asked about before.

To GerColctor:

The buckle is round. I would post a pic of it which I already have if I knew how to do that. It is in my iPhoto files.

Hoyt Weathers · 05-03-2007, 12:43 PM

To GerColctor:

The reason I think the German may have been an officer is only my wild assed guess. I have read somewhere that German SS officers were often shot on the spot. If I had been a German SS officer, I would have dressed as an enlisted man if possible.

My guess is certainly not proof however.

The WW1 era Luger is in a well-repaired holster. The holster had been hit by a bullet or something which went all the way through the holster. Whoever was wearing that holster at the time got a terrible leg wound.

The Luger has the unit I.D. on the front grip strap.

The next time I visit my brother, I will take several pictures of the Luger and the holster.

How do I post pictures inside a reply in this forum? I tried to drag and drop, but that did not work.

Edward Tinker · 05-03-2007, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hoyt Weathers
...

How do I post pictures inside a reply in this forum? I tried to drag and drop, but that did not work.

Use the ADD REPLY, not the quick reply.

OR, upload the photos (upper right part of your screen) and copy and paste the url (link).

There is no way to drag and drop, you can only do that on your own computer or with specific software (and I don't know any forums that have that kind of software)

What you say about SS officers is true, but lots of SS enlisteds were issued pistols, as were lots of other enlisteds. As other folks said, the "story" is much more common of "taken from an officer"... The chance is likely of what your brother said, simply by percentage of pistols and users (amount of enlisteds issued pistols has to be close or more than officers and as officers go up in rank, the pistol gets smaller).

Ed

Hoyt Weathers · 05-04-2007, 05:35 PM

To Edward Tinker:

Thank you for your reply and the information therein. What you say makes sense to me.
Due to this Forum, I learn more every day I tune into it.

As the saying goes: "If they could only talk!"

Regards,
Hoyt Weathers

Roadkill · 05-04-2007, 09:48 PM

Hoyt, if I'm not mistaken I'm pretty close to you, Trinity on the west side of Decatur?

Rk

Hoyt Weathers · 05-05-2007, 10:19 AM

To Roadkill:

Egg zakly. I live on top of Trinity Mountain at 597 South Mountain Drive up against the north end of the Grange Hall cemetery. My tel # is: 353-5780 . Give me a shout sometime and we can get together.

Regards,
Hoyt
Hoyt

GerColctor · 05-05-2007, 07:27 PM

Hoyte

If there are grip strap markings on the Luger, it was either originally an Imperial Army regiment or a Weimar Police District. These grip markings have nothing to do with the gun being SS. It would be interesting to know the chamber date/s on this weapon, as well as if it is a DWM or Erfurt.

You mentioned that the belt buckle was round. That statement opens up some interesting possiblities. It all depends what is on that buckle, as to what organization it was issued to. SS officers wore round buckles. If it actually is an SS officer's buckle and in good shape, then that buckle might be worth quite a few $$$.
Joe

Hoyt Weathers · 05-05-2007, 11:10 PM

To GerColctor:

I do not have time now to respond in detail. I am leaving early tomorrow morning for a week and will visit my brother during that visit. I plan to take pics of the holster, the front grip strap unit I.D., and other details of the Luger. I know what to shoot pics of. (all of them) The buckle is round with double runnes in a circle on the back along with several other stampings. The buckle clip to go onto the belt is broken off at the tip. I already have pics of the back of the buckle. I hope to reply in more detail with pics in one week or so.
Regards,
Hoyt Weathers

JonS/42 · 06-23-2007, 08:27 PM

I would actually think that the SS would have been pretty low on the Luger issue food chain-it's my understanding that the priority of service 9mm pistols was to the Wehrmacht, and the other services had to either scramble for the leftovers, or use foreign "substitute standard" weapons, such as the Browning Hi-Power, or accept lower-caliber firearms, such as the CZ 27, etc.

Best, Jon

Ron Smith · 06-24-2007, 09:21 AM

Hoyt,

A photo of WWI enlisted troops in review. Note the Lugers.

You stated that the buckle was round, which would be an officers buckle. Enlisted buckles are rectangular.

It was not only SS officers that were shot. Enlisted often suffered the same fate as the war was being lost. Many of the SS held out as long as possible. It was a common occurance for them to lay in wait, "Snipe" advancing Allied troops and then surrender.

Omar Bradley put out a "subtle"order that he didn't want to hear about German snipers being taken prisoner.

hqbmw · 06-25-2007, 12:23 PM

Ron,

GREAT image. Pictures like these are proven history.

Jack

azlaw · 06-26-2007, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hoyt Weathers
To GerColctor:

If I had been a German SS officer, I would have dressed as an enlisted man if possible.

Himmler certainly took this view, he posed as a seargent of the Feldpolizei. Of course he promptly made his true identity known upon capture, allegedly hoping to "negotiate", then decided that wasn't a good plan either and swallowed his cyanide capsule.

H

Ron Smith · 06-26-2007, 09:10 AM

Some concentration camp SS guards also tried to pass themselves off as prisoners, with little success. When discovered, some were shot or beaten by Allied troops who couldn't control their anger at what they were seeing.

Navy · 06-26-2007, 11:49 AM

There is a detailed account of what happened at Dachau in a book whose title I cannot remember. Basically a platoon of New Mexico or Arizona National Guardsmen rounded up the Territorial Command guards (The SS had feled a few days before), stood them against a wall and machine gunned them

There were official reports filed, an Article 32 investigation was held and trial by GCM recommended. When the papaer work package got to George Pattoon, who was the GCM convening authority, he took them from his SJA and tossed them into a roaring fireplace.

Interestingly enough, you can find picture of these events on the net if you take the time to search.

Tom A

05-01-2007, 01:33 PM	#1
Hoyt Weathers User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Trinity, Alabama Posts: 61 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Lugers issued to enlisted men in WW2? My older brother captured a German enlisted man in Germany late in the war. The man was wearing a belt holding a repaired WW1 holster with a WW1 Luger inside engraved on the front grip strap with the unit I.D.. The belt buckle has a double runne stamp on the back. It is my contention that my brother captured an officer in an enlisted man's uniform. Were Lugers issued to enlisted men in WW2? Your opinions will be appreciated. Regards, Hoyt Weathers __________________ "When I die, if there are no dogs in Heaven then I want to go where they are." (Will Rogers)

05-01-2007, 02:23 PM	#3
Hoyt Weathers User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Trinity, Alabama Posts: 61 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you for your reply Tom. What mystifies me is the double rune on the back of the buckle. I guess that mark could belong to either an enlisted man or an officer. __________________ "When I die, if there are no dogs in Heaven then I want to go where they are." (Will Rogers)

05-01-2007, 08:33 PM	#4
GerColctor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: CT & FL Posts: 315 Thanks: 2 Thanked 48 Times in 31 Posts	Hoyte Why do you think the holder of the Luger when captured by your brother was an officer in an enlisted man's uniform? Check out the markings on the backside of the military buckles and that may help you identify the "double runes". Is this buckle square or round shaped? Joe __________________ It is better to have lived a day as a tiger, then a thousand years as a lamb.

05-02-2007, 09:38 AM	#6
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	Hello Hoyt, good to hear from you Is it the 'Got mit uns' buckle you asked about some time ago? __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

05-03-2007, 12:23 PM	#7
Hoyt Weathers User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Trinity, Alabama Posts: 61 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	To Morgan Kane: Yes, it is the same buckle I asked about before. To GerColctor: The buckle is round. I would post a pic of it which I already have if I knew how to do that. It is in my iPhoto files. __________________ "When I die, if there are no dogs in Heaven then I want to go where they are." (Will Rogers)

05-01-2007, 02:04 PM	#2
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	hello Hoyt, Yes, Lugers were issued to enlisted men. In fact, only to enlisted men. Officers were expected to purchase their small arms. Tom A

05-02-2007, 07:49 AM	#5
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	Depending on the grip strap unit marking your brother may well have captured a cop.

05-03-2007, 12:43 PM	#8
Hoyt Weathers User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Trinity, Alabama Posts: 61 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	To GerColctor: The reason I think the German may have been an officer is only my wild assed guess. I have read somewhere that German SS officers were often shot on the spot. If I had been a German SS officer, I would have dressed as an enlisted man if possible. My guess is certainly not proof however. The WW1 era Luger is in a well-repaired holster. The holster had been hit by a bullet or something which went all the way through the holster. Whoever was wearing that holster at the time got a terrible leg wound. The Luger has the unit I.D. on the front grip strap. The next time I visit my brother, I will take several pictures of the Luger and the holster. How do I post pictures inside a reply in this forum? I tried to drag and drop, but that did not work. __________________ "When I die, if there are no dogs in Heaven then I want to go where they are." (Will Rogers)

05-04-2007, 05:35 PM	#10
Hoyt Weathers User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Trinity, Alabama Posts: 61 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	To Edward Tinker: Thank you for your reply and the information therein. What you say makes sense to me. Due to this Forum, I learn more every day I tune into it. As the saying goes: "If they could only talk!" Regards, Hoyt Weathers __________________ "When I die, if there are no dogs in Heaven then I want to go where they are." (Will Rogers)

05-04-2007, 09:48 PM	#11
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,634 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Hoyt, if I'm not mistaken I'm pretty close to you, Trinity on the west side of Decatur? Rk

05-05-2007, 10:19 AM	#12
Hoyt Weathers User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Trinity, Alabama Posts: 61 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	To Roadkill: Egg zakly. I live on top of Trinity Mountain at 597 South Mountain Drive up against the north end of the Grange Hall cemetery. My tel # is: 353-5780 . Give me a shout sometime and we can get together. Regards, Hoyt Hoyt __________________ "When I die, if there are no dogs in Heaven then I want to go where they are." (Will Rogers)

05-05-2007, 07:27 PM	#13
GerColctor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: CT & FL Posts: 315 Thanks: 2 Thanked 48 Times in 31 Posts	Hoyte If there are grip strap markings on the Luger, it was either originally an Imperial Army regiment or a Weimar Police District. These grip markings have nothing to do with the gun being SS. It would be interesting to know the chamber date/s on this weapon, as well as if it is a DWM or Erfurt. You mentioned that the belt buckle was round. That statement opens up some interesting possiblities. It all depends what is on that buckle, as to what organization it was issued to. SS officers wore round buckles. If it actually is an SS officer's buckle and in good shape, then that buckle might be worth quite a few $$$. Joe __________________ It is better to have lived a day as a tiger, then a thousand years as a lamb.

05-05-2007, 11:10 PM	#14
Hoyt Weathers User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Trinity, Alabama Posts: 61 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	To GerColctor: I do not have time now to respond in detail. I am leaving early tomorrow morning for a week and will visit my brother during that visit. I plan to take pics of the holster, the front grip strap unit I.D., and other details of the Luger. I know what to shoot pics of. (all of them) The buckle is round with double runnes in a circle on the back along with several other stampings. The buckle clip to go onto the belt is broken off at the tip. I already have pics of the back of the buckle. I hope to reply in more detail with pics in one week or so. Regards, Hoyt Weathers __________________ "When I die, if there are no dogs in Heaven then I want to go where they are." (Will Rogers)

06-23-2007, 08:27 PM	#15
JonS/42 User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Auburn, WA USA Posts: 32 Thanks: 4 Thanked 19 Times in 4 Posts	I would actually think that the SS would have been pretty low on the Luger issue food chain-it's my understanding that the priority of service 9mm pistols was to the Wehrmacht, and the other services had to either scramble for the leftovers, or use foreign "substitute standard" weapons, such as the Browning Hi-Power, or accept lower-caliber firearms, such as the CZ 27, etc. Best, Jon

06-24-2007, 09:21 AM	#16
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Hoyt, A photo of WWI enlisted troops in review. Note the Lugers. You stated that the buckle was round, which would be an officers buckle. Enlisted buckles are rectangular. It was not only SS officers that were shot. Enlisted often suffered the same fate as the war was being lost. Many of the SS held out as long as possible. It was a common occurance for them to lay in wait, "Snipe" advancing Allied troops and then surrender. Omar Bradley put out a "subtle"order that he didn't want to hear about German snipers being taken prisoner. __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

06-25-2007, 12:23 PM	#17
hqbmw User Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Mesa AZ Posts: 228 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ron, GREAT image. Pictures like these are proven history. Jack __________________ Jack Hiles Mesa AZ

06-26-2007, 09:10 AM	#19
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Some concentration camp SS guards also tried to pass themselves off as prisoners, with little success. When discovered, some were shot or beaten by Allied troops who couldn't control their anger at what they were seeing. __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

06-26-2007, 11:49 AM	#20
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	There is a detailed account of what happened at Dachau in a book whose title I cannot remember. Basically a platoon of New Mexico or Arizona National Guardsmen rounded up the Territorial Command guards (The SS had feled a few days before), stood them against a wall and machine gunned them There were official reports filed, an Article 32 investigation was held and trial by GCM recommended. When the papaer work package got to George Pattoon, who was the GCM convening authority, he took them from his SJA and tossed them into a roaring fireplace. Interestingly enough, you can find picture of these events on the net if you take the time to search. Tom A