DWM Commercial Questions

ebrem · 10-09-2012, 09:54 AM

Hello

I am interested in purchasing (which I am looking at now) a DWM 4" serial number 581X Luger.
It does not have a date stamped on it. It appears that all serial numbers match but for the magazine (no serial number) which I believe is period to the pistol. There is a pairc of curved lines on both the under side of the barrel and the underside of the frame.(which I do not know what this means). The gun looks to have its original bluing and is in approximately 92% blue condition. The trigger, take down lever, etc, all are golden in color.
The bore has some very slight pitting towards the end of the barrel.

This will be my first purchase, so I need some serious help if you would be so kind.

!. Can you please date this. Someone said it was a Commercial 1917?
2. How can you recognize the caliper of the pistol?
3. I would like to know what a fair price for this Luger as described
would be. I also know that this is hard to answer with this little information, but would hope for a general ides of value The price of this Luger is . I am afraid I may miss out on this if I do not act quickly.

Thank you.

mrerick · 10-09-2012, 10:07 AM

Hi, and welcome to the forum.

There are so many variations and possible issues that it's almost impossible to give you a valid pricing estimate without pictures.

Take a No. 2 pencil and see if it can loosely be inserted into the barrel. If so, it's 9mm. If it can't go in, or is very tight it's .30 Luger. I recently posted a study:

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...ight=.30+luger

Is "581x" the actual number, or did you use the "x" to conceal the last digit of a numeric serial number?

Marc

ebrem · 10-09-2012, 10:15 AM

Hello Mark

Thank you for your response.
I forgot to add that there is a Crown over N marking on the Luger in 2 places, if this is at all helpful.

What else do I need other than a photo for a better description for the Forum to help me.

Thank you

ebrem · 10-09-2012, 10:16 AM

Mark

Yes, the X is to mask the last digit of the Serial Number on this Luger, sorry I forgot to add this in my last post.

Ron Wood · 10-09-2012, 12:17 PM

Is there a small letter under the serial number on the front of the frame?

mrerick · 10-09-2012, 01:02 PM

Get good clear photos of the overall pistol on both sides; and closeups of all the markings that are externally visible.

Also photograph closeups of any finish damage or wear.

Try and get photos of the numbering of small parts, and the inside of the grips (if you remove them, use great care to not damage them or the screws... Especially avoid lifting them too far off the frame before sliding them down and off. Watch the safety lever area.).

Get pictures of the axle retention pin area; the extractor marking and safety marking.

Marc

ebrem · 10-13-2012, 03:35 PM

New photos loaded. It's a 9mm, Serial number 582(x0 with a u type scroll letter. The grips are not serial numbered, or the magazine. There is a a crown oner n stamp on the barrel, and the frame. Frame is not dated, no number on side plate, bore has very minor pitting at the end.

Please help with any other information and the approximate value.
I would like to buy this piece, but need a ball park figure.

Thank you

ebrem · 10-13-2012, 03:41 PM

Some more photos added.

SteveM · 10-13-2012, 05:38 PM

It could just be me, but there are areas on this Luger that lool like they have been freshened up a bit. The front gripstrap looks to glossy and the straw looks to "new". Could be the pics though..

MFC · 10-13-2012, 11:37 PM

It is classified as a 29DWM in Still's 'Weimar Lugers' (made in 1929).

Edward Tinker · 10-13-2012, 11:47 PM

if all original as first looks, i would say $1400-$1500 / as it is very nice / if it has been freshened up - less - much less

but, it looks like a nice commercial to me...

DavidJayUden · 10-14-2012, 12:26 AM

A very nice commercial. And in 9mm too...
dju

mrerick · 10-14-2012, 09:54 AM

I find it very hard to judge the finish in these photos. The right grip has a tone much lighter than the left grip, implying that it was cleaned aggressively at some point.

The deep richness of the front strap certainly contrasts with the thin finish on most of the rest of the gun.

The straw looks so clean and new, it's hard to believe it's been in the air for these 83 years.

The thing that bothers me is the asymmetry of the halos on the barrel.

To illustrate, I've posted a picture of the barrel of my DWM commercial 7053m (1923) which has the most pronounced halos of all my Lugers. While they spread from the places where the digits are stamped into the metal, the halo spread is symmetric.

The halos on ebrem's sn 5812u pistol (particularly the "u", the width of the halo around "1" and the encircled areas of the 5 and 3) are not symmetrical. Since these digits are stamped straight on, it makes me wonder if the areas were chemically lightened after refinishing.

Another thing (and this could be the lighting, camera pickup or photoshop induced) is the translucent appearance of the finish. It reminds me of the early salt bluing variations seen in Mauser Lugers when they were having difficulty stabilizing the process in the late 1930s. Salt bluing would be wrong for this DWM.

If refinished, probably at the high end of "shooter" pistols. $1000 - $1100. If all original finish, I agree with Ed above.

Marc

sheepherder · 10-14-2012, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

If refinished, probably at the high end of "shooter" pistols. $1000 - $1100. If all original finish, I agree with Ed above.

Marc

+ 1

ebrem · 10-14-2012, 01:02 PM

Thank you all for your considered opinion, and if anyone else would care to respond I would gladly appreciate it.

The more information I receive the better chance I have of making the right decision.

lugersrkewl · 10-14-2012, 08:43 PM

The straw looks easy bake oven fresh, I notice the barrel mark on Marc's the notch used to align barrel looks like it has a halo.

Dwight Gruber · 10-16-2012, 12:05 PM

u suffix 29DWMs were never made originally in 9mm. The "halos" on the barrel serial numbers of this pistol have been artificially reproduced.

The only Alphabet commercial/29DWM worth more than $1k would be one in perfectly mint condition (or a police pistol). Alphabet Commercials in good original condition may be worth as much as $600-$800, although the ask price is usually much more.

This Luger, refinished and rebarreled to 9mm, is worth less than $500. If you are looking strictly for a 9mm Luger to shoot and can get it cheap, it might be worthwhile. Otherwise I suggest you avoid it like the plague and save your money for a good one.

--Dwight

Edward Tinker · 10-16-2012, 03:14 PM

Dwight knows commercials as good as anyone on the forums (one of the best)

Although I have seen commercial lugers that went into police service and do not doubt that they went into army service also.

See if a high intensity flash light shows patina under the lighting - you might need to have experience in judging whether it is a refinish or not

If refinished and a shooter / then value I would say $700-$850...

saab-bob · 10-16-2012, 03:30 PM

Dwight
Just to clarify on the halos around the numbers.
If the halos conformed more to the shape of the numbers they would be correct?
In this case,someone dabbed a chemical that took off the bluing as a spot?

Thanks for the expertise.
Bob

alanint · 10-16-2012, 05:19 PM

A Q-tip dipped in Birchwood Casey Blueing remover will get you just that effect.

10-09-2012, 09:54 AM	#1
ebrem User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	DWM Commercial Questions Hello I am interested in purchasing (which I am looking at now) a DWM 4" serial number 581X Luger. It does not have a date stamped on it. It appears that all serial numbers match but for the magazine (no serial number) which I believe is period to the pistol. There is a pairc of curved lines on both the under side of the barrel and the underside of the frame.(which I do not know what this means). The gun looks to have its original bluing and is in approximately 92% blue condition. The trigger, take down lever, etc, all are golden in color. The bore has some very slight pitting towards the end of the barrel. This will be my first purchase, so I need some serious help if you would be so kind. !. Can you please date this. Someone said it was a Commercial 1917? 2. How can you recognize the caliper of the pistol? 3. I would like to know what a fair price for this Luger as described would be. I also know that this is hard to answer with this little information, but would hope for a general ides of value The price of this Luger is . I am afraid I may miss out on this if I do not act quickly. Thank you.

10-09-2012, 10:07 AM	#2
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	Hi, and welcome to the forum. There are so many variations and possible issues that it's almost impossible to give you a valid pricing estimate without pictures. Take a No. 2 pencil and see if it can loosely be inserted into the barrel. If so, it's 9mm. If it can't go in, or is very tight it's .30 Luger. I recently posted a study: http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...ight=.30+luger Is "581x" the actual number, or did you use the "x" to conceal the last digit of a numeric serial number? Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

10-09-2012, 12:17 PM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,035 Thanks: 1,106 Thanked 5,242 Times in 1,719 Posts	Is there a small letter under the serial number on the front of the frame? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-09-2012, 01:02 PM	#6
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	Get good clear photos of the overall pistol on both sides; and closeups of all the markings that are externally visible. Also photograph closeups of any finish damage or wear. Try and get photos of the numbering of small parts, and the inside of the grips (if you remove them, use great care to not damage them or the screws... Especially avoid lifting them too far off the frame before sliding them down and off. Watch the safety lever area.). Get pictures of the axle retention pin area; the extractor marking and safety marking. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

10-13-2012, 03:35 PM	#7
ebrem User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dwm questions continued with photos New photos loaded. It's a 9mm, Serial number 582(x0 with a u type scroll letter. The grips are not serial numbered, or the magazine. There is a a crown oner n stamp on the barrel, and the frame. Frame is not dated, no number on side plate, bore has very minor pitting at the end. Please help with any other information and the approximate value. I would like to buy this piece, but need a ball park figure. Thank you Attached Thumbnails

10-09-2012, 10:15 AM	#3
ebrem User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello Mark Thank you for your response. I forgot to add that there is a Crown over N marking on the Luger in 2 places, if this is at all helpful. What else do I need other than a photo for a better description for the Forum to help me. Thank you

10-09-2012, 10:16 AM	#4
ebrem User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Mark Yes, the X is to mask the last digit of the Serial Number on this Luger, sorry I forgot to add this in my last post.

10-13-2012, 03:41 PM	#8
ebrem User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Commercial DWM Some more photos added. Attached Thumbnails

10-13-2012, 05:38 PM	#9
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	It could just be me, but there are areas on this Luger that lool like they have been freshened up a bit. The front gripstrap looks to glossy and the straw looks to "new". Could be the pics though..

10-13-2012, 11:37 PM	#10
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	It is classified as a 29DWM in Still's 'Weimar Lugers' (made in 1929). __________________ Mike C.

10-13-2012, 11:47 PM	#11
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,962 Thanks: 2,063 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	if all original as first looks, i would say $1400-$1500 / as it is very nice / if it has been freshened up - less - much less but, it looks like a nice commercial to me... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-14-2012, 12:26 AM	#12
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	A very nice commercial. And in 9mm too... dju

10-14-2012, 09:54 AM	#13
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	Finish is the issue... I find it very hard to judge the finish in these photos. The right grip has a tone much lighter than the left grip, implying that it was cleaned aggressively at some point. The deep richness of the front strap certainly contrasts with the thin finish on most of the rest of the gun. The straw looks so clean and new, it's hard to believe it's been in the air for these 83 years. The thing that bothers me is the asymmetry of the halos on the barrel. To illustrate, I've posted a picture of the barrel of my DWM commercial 7053m (1923) which has the most pronounced halos of all my Lugers. While they spread from the places where the digits are stamped into the metal, the halo spread is symmetric. The halos on ebrem's sn 5812u pistol (particularly the "u", the width of the halo around "1" and the encircled areas of the 5 and 3) are not symmetrical. Since these digits are stamped straight on, it makes me wonder if the areas were chemically lightened after refinishing. Another thing (and this could be the lighting, camera pickup or photoshop induced) is the translucent appearance of the finish. It reminds me of the early salt bluing variations seen in Mauser Lugers when they were having difficulty stabilizing the process in the late 1930s. Salt bluing would be wrong for this DWM. If refinished, probably at the high end of "shooter" pistols. $1000 - $1100. If all original finish, I agree with Ed above. Marc Attached Thumbnails Attached Images __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

10-14-2012, 01:02 PM	#15
ebrem User Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you all for your considered opinion, and if anyone else would care to respond I would gladly appreciate it. The more information I receive the better chance I have of making the right decision.

10-14-2012, 08:43 PM	#16
lugersrkewl Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Ussr Posts: 425 Thanks: 198 Thanked 75 Times in 58 Posts	The straw looks easy bake oven fresh, I notice the barrel mark on Marc's the notch used to align barrel looks like it has a halo.

10-16-2012, 12:05 PM	#17
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	u suffix 29DWMs were never made originally in 9mm. The "halos" on the barrel serial numbers of this pistol have been artificially reproduced. The only Alphabet commercial/29DWM worth more than $1k would be one in perfectly mint condition (or a police pistol). Alphabet Commercials in good original condition may be worth as much as $600-$800, although the ask price is usually much more. This Luger, refinished and rebarreled to 9mm, is worth less than $500. If you are looking strictly for a 9mm Luger to shoot and can get it cheap, it might be worthwhile. Otherwise I suggest you avoid it like the plague and save your money for a good one. --Dwight

10-16-2012, 03:14 PM	#18
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,962 Thanks: 2,063 Thanked 4,592 Times in 2,114 Posts	Dwight knows commercials as good as anyone on the forums (one of the best) Although I have seen commercial lugers that went into police service and do not doubt that they went into army service also. See if a high intensity flash light shows patina under the lighting - you might need to have experience in judging whether it is a refinish or not If refinished and a shooter / then value I would say $700-$850...

10-16-2012, 03:30 PM	#19
saab-bob User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: So Cal Posts: 459 Thanks: 774 Thanked 143 Times in 87 Posts	Dwight Just to clarify on the halos around the numbers. If the halos conformed more to the shape of the numbers they would be correct? In this case,someone dabbed a chemical that took off the bluing as a spot? Thanks for the expertise. Bob __________________ "I think,therefore I own guns"

10-16-2012, 05:19 PM	#20
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,917 Times in 1,193 Posts	A Q-tip dipped in Birchwood Casey Blueing remover will get you just that effect.