Frankenlugers, or Parts Guns vs. Shooters

[John Winter]

One of the most valuable assets to beginning collectors is Steve Fjestad's Blue Book of Gun Values. The information contained in this book has been compiled by nationally recognized experts in both firearms evaluation and marketability and basically, it sets the standard for the trade. In examining the section Lugers with Variations, one finds that the lowest, or shooter classification is 60%, which by description refers to pistols in matching, original condition with the exception of the magazine. Recent imports are separately classified as being in the $395-$550 price range and the issue of parts guns is not even mentioned.

Probably anyone who has had the experience of trading at the larger shows has been offered parts guns, or Frankenlugers. To the established, ethical dealer, these have little or no appeal as firearms investments and are consequently avoided. Assuming that a gun in this classification hasn't been refinished, renumbered or worn out, their only realistic value depends on the condition of their parts. Refinished mixmasters with aftermarket parts are of even lesser value. While these gems are frequently foisted off on the unsuspecting at prices approximating the value of legitimate Lugers, usually the only person who would buy one already has. When individuals on this forum urge beginning collectors to purchase guns in this latter category at prices comparable to those of legitimate guns, they undermine their own credibility.

[Vlim]

John,

That very much depends on the entire situation. If someone is looking for a collector grade gun, the answer is always simple: Get the best one you can afford.

But there are interesting parts guns that classify as lower grade collector guns. The VoPo's are a good example of this and also the mismatched Dutch contract lugers are in a league of their own. Their existance is well-documented and even a mismatched Dutch contract will bring $2000 without much problems.

If someone wants a shooter, it all depends on the condition or shootability. In that case, get the technically best gun your money will buy you and this most certainly isn't the most expensive one.

This has nothing to do with credibility, but everything with common sense.

[John Winter]

These factors are all addressed in the book and they remain exactly as I have described them in the thread. Many of the individuals who have compiled this data are known to me personally and they have already done an admirable job of setting the standard for our trade. If you disagree with Steve Fjestad, I'd suggest that you contact him. By the way, credibility is determined within the parameters of established standards.

It's probably best to read the book, because that's the norm in this country.

[John Sabato]

One of the most valuable assets to beginning collectors is Steve Fjestad's Blue Book of Gun Values.

John,

While I understand where you are coming from, I believe you are missing an important point. I also agree with Gerben's assessment.

Your writing above and your point of view, and obviously the point of view of the book you have mentioned is based on the premise that all members of this forum, and all who wish to buy Luger pistols are "collectors" or "dealers"... and many simply are not...they are shooting enthusiasts who like not only the Luger but many different types of guns. While your espoused philosophy well suits the person who deals in firearms or collects rare examples, it is not a one-shoe fits-all for everyone who likes Lugers or just wants to have a functional example to shoot. "Parts" Lugers are not mentioned in the book, because they are not collectible and the book is about collector values.

Many Luger enthusiasts (especially members of this forum) are new and old shooters who want the experience of owning and shooting a Luger pistol, but don't want the concern of potential damage to a Luger that a Collector might someday hope to own. They also don't want to invest in a shooter at collector prices.

Some of these people eventually become "collectors" after being exposed to people like yourself... Their tastes and viewpoints evolve with time. While there is certainly some historical signifigance in what ever Luger one happens to own, or desires to own, the value of each gun is a very subjective thing to the owner or prospective owner that is not subject to market conditions, or collector standards.

In my 61 years, I have never purchased a firearm because it held a specific collector value... I bought all my guns to shoot, or modify or carry to protect what is mine. Some of the firearms I purchased have become far more valuable than the paltry price I paid for them way back when. The fact that I own a few valuable firearms is a matter of chance... not intent.

As an example, My TDE .44 Automag, purchased for $325 (at dealer cost years before Clint Eastwood's Dirty Harry movie made it famous) made me very happy to own it, shoot it, and reload for it, making my own cases, and casting my own bullets... But now it is a safe queen. I probably won't fire it again except to impress my grandchildren should the occassion present itself.

Theoretically, if I came across an obviously original, but unknown variant of a .45 caliber Luger at a yard sale in an obscure town... I would probably bust the caps on a box of 50 rounds of .45 ACP long before I told anyone that I owned it... and of course, then I would do a photographic essay and post it here on the forum and sit back and wait for those interested to put my grandchildren through college by bidding on it.

A functional FrankenLuger can provide as much joy to the novice shooter enthusiast, as holding and admiring an all matching gun does to those who collect, without required the novice to take out a mortgage.

A non functional or poorly fitted parts Luger is a challenge to new or old gunsmiths who have never had the opportunity to examine and appreciate the 100+ year old engineering... Finally getting a FrankenLuger to shoot reliably is a real accomplishment to be proud of for someone like that.

In short, (now that I have not been brief), your opinion is considered, respected, and acknowledged, but obviously not shared by all who frequent this forum. Being different from each other is what makes this forum so great. Shared ideas and shared comaraderie... If we were all the same and thought the same we wouldn't have anything to talk about.

kind regards,

John Sabato

[policeluger]

I have a BBGV here in my shop, given to me by a grateful customer. I took it as it was offered and have perhaps opened it once. The best guide to a guns value is following internet sales, comparing guns in the range/class you are looking for, and see what they bring. In addition to Lugers, I collect old turn of the last century gun company envelopes with the colorful art work, I use the same method for gaging what I will bid on these. Now there are collector books with values these should bring, but often as in Lugers, its a waiting game, and deals do come along, and as we all know money talks.......

[MikeP]

In 50+ years of fooling with all kinds of collectable military weapons I have learned to regard any kind of blue books with lots of scepticism.

They may be useful as guidelines, but often do not reflect reality.

They are more commonly used for a dealer to shove in your face and buy your piece.

Very few will be resold at "book value."
Checked "going prices" lately?
Mismatched shooters on rapid rise.
Parts getting scarcer significantly.
I fire my lugers a lot less than I used to-they're just getting too valuable and I got other things to shoot.

Also the wait and one will come along theory, while once credible, has about worn out.

There are just too many folks scouring the countryside anymore to wait til something falls in your lap.

I think the attack on credibility is pretentious and not really warranted.

[John Sabato]

Easy does it Mike... Opinions are like "elbows" everybody has some... and are entitled to them. That just doesn't make them right for everyone.

The fact is that the situations described by you above are compounded by the fact that there are a finite number of Lugers and Luger parts and accessories in the world, and and ever increasing number of people interested in them... sooner or later, demand will outstrip supply and that's when prices and values skyrocket... (Did someone say Gasoline?) Books can't keep up with the rapid changes in todays high speed communications world.

[John Winter]

There is no substitute for experience and I have yet to find any data in either Fjestad or Flayderman with very few exceptions that isn't easily supportable, mainly because it was collected by the most successful dealers in the country. True, there may be minor price fluctuations but overall these publications are both widely accepted and well respected by the trade and provide the basis for collector firearms values in everythng from appraisals to insurance. With regards to the forum, I now understand what I hitherto misunderstood. I'll stick with the experts.

[G.T.]

John, Although I think the BBGV's is a great book, I have to also say that I believe it is slanted in favor of the dealer as far as retail value is concerned... I don't have the same faith in the contributing dealers to the BBGV's book as you, because I have no history with them, or at least very few of them, and what little I've had, hasn't been all that good.... On the other hand, I have had many years of trading, buying and selling with members of this forum and have yet to have a bad experience... Many of these guys are also members of NAPCA, and they truly are the experts!! And most are not dealers... An old saying I once heard was, "Who's watching the watchers??" All books and publications are subject to scrutiny... No-one gets a free ride on that... best to you, til...lat'r...GT

[Vlim]

One of the most valuable assets to beginning collectors is Steve Fjestad's Blue Book of Gun Values.

In the USA maybe, it's worth less in other parts of the world, though.

[John Winter]

I have known some members of the NAPCA leadership for at least twenty years and their lack of input on this forum is conspicuous. Wonder why that is. The data accumulated on firearms identification and values in the periodicals cited remain the standard for the industry now and will be so ten years from now, everywhere but on the Luger Forum? Yeah, right. Enjoy the check!

[G.T.]

I think someone is having a snit??!! til....lat'r....GT

[zinfull]

I would like to thank those here who are willing to help out us rookies. As for the open question about the leadership of NAPCA my guess is they do not want to be bothered with a rookie seeking answers about his inherited bastard mix match luger from his grandfather.

As far as I can tell no one disapproves of the book identification value but they do not go by the stated price values. It is relative for values as to what people pay and where they live. Some variations should go for more than others but due to marketing, BW, they do not get the required associated book value. Book values of most things these days are a relative reference due to the internet . It all ends with what some one will pay, not what some one said to pay.

Once again Thank you to the people who help us rookies.

Jerry

[Lyn Islaub]

JRW,
I've been an NAPCA member for 12 years and a member of this Forum since 2002. I consider both this Forum and Jan Still's Forum to be very creditable sources for the collector of German automatic pistols to acquire and dispense valuable information. Your taking obvious offense is unfortunate, because as John said above; you took a position on a publication and others responded with their own thoughts. That's what makes this collector's society work. Cool, off a bit and come back and join us for some healthy dialogue. You would be surprised at how many NAPCA members participate and contribute their opinions on these forums.
Lyn

[Ron Wood]

JRW,

Please review some of the above comments with an unbiased eye. There are centuries of experience on the two forums mentioned...we are not all novices. I daresay that you spend more money traveling to the various gun shows to observe the elusive bargain than most ordinary gun nuts have to spend on the one gun that they have found and are considering for purchase. I have been a NAPCA member off and on for more than the twenty years you tout as the criteria for senior membership, and I assure you I have no lack of input to both of the forums.

You speak from the position of a well traveled dealer and no doubt a well recognized authority on collecting. However, I would submit that you have lost sight of the growing community of shooters and collectors that have real time access to other reasonably authoritative positions on the valuation of Lugers. Your statement: "The data accumulated on firearms identification and values in the periodicals cited remain the standard for the industry now and will be so ten years from now, everywhere but on the Luger Forum?" reflects the dogmatic mind set that if it is published it is correct. I review the BBGV on a constant basis and I am appalled at the misinformation on Luger values it occasionally contains. Yes, it is an honest effort (I hope) but it is a broad brush approach to every collecting category and is therefore subject to myopic evaluation and over generalization. I would hang my hat a thousand times more on the assessment of the members of the active members of the two Luger forums than I would on the BBGV.

[TooTech]

Originally posted by John Winter
Recent imports are separately classified as being in the $395-$550 price range and the issue of parts guns is not even mentioned.

And with this statement the book's credibility immediately comes into question. Where are all of these $395-$550 recently imported shooters with all parts matched except the magazine?

[John Sabato]

That statement would have been true over 5 years ago... and if the statement is representative of the information in the book, then it calls into question just how current the rest of the content of the book really is. Just because the put a new "year" on the cover, doesn't mean the content is up to date with current prices.

[Dwight Gruber]

I find it interesting that the list of acknowledgements for the Blue Book does not contain any names of recognized Luger collector specialists or the major dealers with whom we are all familiar (with apologies to Len Anteris and Anthony Vanderlinden, extremely knowledgable and experienced collectors who do not truly specialize in our interests; and to John Martz, who has his own section in the book).

--Dwight

[Mauser720]

In every collecting endeavor there will be at least one authoritative book on the values of the objects being collecting. And in some collecting activites there are several books on "values." Often the experts do not even agree on the "wholesale" versus "retail" prices of collectibles. This is true of comic books, glassware, knives, stamps, coins, pottery, thimbles, furniture and anything else you can think of.

These books are only a starting point or a "rule of thumb" by which collectors can get some idea of the values.

However, I think we all know that how much a Luger is worth is actually a question of how much are we willing to pay for that particular Luger?

If a potential buyer wants a particular Luger bad enough, he or she will pay top dollar or even more than top dollar for it.

And conversely, if you or I are not particularly interested in a particular Luger, we will not purchase it, even if it is a bargain.

In other words, it is the collecting community that determines the real value of a Luger, regardless of what the books may say.

I once asked a dealer what a particular item was "worth" and he said something that has always stuck with me: "It is worth what you are willing to pay."

I took this to mean that there is often a difference between what something is worth, and what someone is actually willing to pay; and vice versa.

So in summary, I would simply suggest that the books on value do make a valuable contribution to our hobby; however, they are only one part of the whole "value" equation.

Mauser720 - Ron

[Ron Smith]

I find The "Standard Catalog of Firearms" published by Gun List to be more accurate than BBGV. In either case these are merely guides and estimates, and should not be looked at as actual values.

Depending on what part of the country you are in. The values can vary greatly.

Paid one year's dues to NAPCA, got shorted 3 months. The one and only time I will give them $50. I can be insulted for free nearly anywhere. I wasn't impressed... no offense to present company.