Restoration/refurbishing.

wlyon · 01-17-2006, 12:39 AM

It seems we hear more and more about having lugers reconditioned to look like new issued.

I have no objection to whatever an individual wants to do. However, I worry that a few years from now these lugers will be on the market as original. It would seem that these should be marked in a manner that collectors will know they are not original. Are any?

Personally I prefer a 95% luger to a mint one. I am reasonably sure it is correct.

There have been endless discussions on refurbishing vs. original. Would still like to hear a few opinions.

Frank · 01-17-2006, 07:35 AM

Bill, a real concern!! If Thor does the restoration, he places three red painted dots on either the bottom of the stock lug or on the bottom of the frame inside the magazine well. This should give any buyer the red flag that it had been restored! These dots are pretty easy to detect if you do any type of decent inspection.

I am unsure what other restoration specialists do to indicate a refurbishment!!

Ponyman · 01-17-2006, 05:03 PM

How difficult would it be to remove Thor's red paint?

Erfurt PERMANENTLY marked the pieces they reworked. I don't think it would be unreasonable for the "Master Restorers' Union" to agree on an internal location to be used for marking a piece as reworked. Perhaps each Restorer could have their own registered "proof stamp".

Herb · 01-17-2006, 06:28 PM

It would be fairly easy to remove the red paint, but it would be really difficult to remove the three punch marks that the paint is in.

Luke · 01-17-2006, 07:34 PM

I have 3 of Thor's restored guns; all have the three red punch marks.

Removal of these would be easy to detect, as they are sufficiently deep to require significant metal removal to eliminate. This is true, however, only if one knows where to look for such metal removal.

Another thought: Thor does such a good job that his known restorals, as such, should bring a good price in the future . . . . IMHO.

Luke

Dwight Gruber · 01-18-2006, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ponyman
Erfurt PERMANENTLY marked the pieces they reworked.

Just for the sake of pedantry, Erfurt did not engage in a rework program.

If you do a search on the subjects touched on here you will find quite a history of the discussion.

--Dwight

Ponyman · 01-18-2006, 10:13 AM

I've never had an opportunity to examine a piece restored by Thor, and Frank did not mention the punching in the post I replied to. Based on the new information, I concur that Thor is responsably "signing" his work.

Do any other known restorers follow such practice?

Herb · 01-18-2006, 11:31 AM

Here is an example of Thor's work.....

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/thor_2.jpg

I couldn't get the other side to upload, it exceeds the limits. It's not mine, it belongs to Jerry Peters, or it did when Thor did the work.

Strider · 01-18-2006, 02:21 PM

Ponyman,
Check out the links section of the forum. There you will find a link for Thor (Ted Green). His site has a variety of pictures of his work that you can check out. I have had one done by him and it came out great. I have also seen a lot of others that he has done in the past in person. He used to have a picture of his mark on the site but I was unable to locate it. I am sure that if you send him an email he would be happy to send it to you.
Sid.

Pete Ebbink · 01-26-2006, 12:17 PM

Bill,

I am with you...give me a 95% piece to a mint "sock drawer" or "attic" piece anyday...

I am pretty sure Ted started giving folks the option to NOT have the 3-dots added.

I am sure this option has lead Ted's business to grow to his current 6-10 month backlog...seems like the market DOES want refinsihed guns that are not so marked...

Some of the good refinishers have "tell tale" signatures...if one sees enough work by folks like Gale Morgan or Mike Forte or Bill Christenson or Mike Krause...you can sort of see their work when they pop up at gun shows and gun shops.

The folks at Simpson's sell Gale Morgan restoration, as such, all the time and advertise it as such...as Morgan restorations have their own collector neich.

I think Forte has the DWM salt blue recipe very accurate...better than Morgan's work.

And then fellows like John Martz place their name or initials on the restored piece.

I have had the chance to see some of Ted's pieces resold at gun shows as well...his stand out as well.

The honesty comes in to play when a current owner of an expertly refinished piece sells it to the next fellow collector. Either one is honest or not...

Since some of these folks and the follks that came before them have been re-doing guns since the 1960's, these redone pieces will show oxidation and patina and wear in 2006...so the task of deciding original or not is more difficult with time passing...so one needs to look for other things...other than oxidation/patina.

Thor · 01-26-2006, 02:50 PM

I do these markings as an option as some folks were grinding them off anyway. They can be removed if you have the proper tools, but it is a bit of work to do it right. I do keep a SN list and I will always tell you if a specific SN and variation was done here if I am asked. It does also seem everyone wants engraving that really delays work I am starting to weed out those needing engraving and welding so I can reduce the back log. I hate the delay as much as some of my customers do. Natalie and I do appreciate all the work.

01-17-2006, 12:39 AM	#1
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,652 Thanks: 3,210 Thanked 2,613 Times in 969 Posts	Restoration/refurbishing. It seems we hear more and more about having lugers reconditioned to look like new issued. I have no objection to whatever an individual wants to do. However, I worry that a few years from now these lugers will be on the market as original. It would seem that these should be marked in a manner that collectors will know they are not original. Are any? Personally I prefer a 95% luger to a mint one. I am reasonably sure it is correct. There have been endless discussions on refurbishing vs. original. Would still like to hear a few opinions. __________________ Bill Lyon

01-17-2006, 05:03 PM	#3
Ponyman User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Atlantic County, NJ, USA Posts: 138 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	How difficult would it be to remove Thor's red paint? Erfurt PERMANENTLY marked the pieces they reworked. I don't think it would be unreasonable for the "Master Restorers' Union" to agree on an internal location to be used for marking a piece as reworked. Perhaps each Restorer could have their own registered "proof stamp". __________________ "The Constitution is intended for use by a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the governance of any other." ~ John Quincy Adams

01-17-2006, 06:28 PM	#4
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	It would be fairly easy to remove the red paint, but it would be really difficult to remove the three punch marks that the paint is in. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

01-17-2006, 07:34 PM	#5
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 7 Posts	I have 3 of Thor's restored guns; all have the three red punch marks. Removal of these would be easy to detect, as they are sufficiently deep to require significant metal removal to eliminate. This is true, however, only if one knows where to look for such metal removal. Another thought: Thor does such a good job that his known restorals, as such, should bring a good price in the future . . . . IMHO. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

01-18-2006, 10:13 AM	#7
Ponyman User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Atlantic County, NJ, USA Posts: 138 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I've never had an opportunity to examine a piece restored by Thor, and Frank did not mention the punching in the post I replied to. Based on the new information, I concur that Thor is responsably "signing" his work. Do any other known restorers follow such practice? __________________ "The Constitution is intended for use by a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the governance of any other." ~ John Quincy Adams

01-17-2006, 07:35 AM	#2
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 164 Times in 87 Posts	Bill, a real concern!! If Thor does the restoration, he places three red painted dots on either the bottom of the stock lug or on the bottom of the frame inside the magazine well. This should give any buyer the red flag that it had been restored! These dots are pretty easy to detect if you do any type of decent inspection. I am unsure what other restoration specialists do to indicate a refurbishment!!

01-18-2006, 11:31 AM	#8
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Here is an example of Thor's work..... http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/thor_2.jpg I couldn't get the other side to upload, it exceeds the limits. It's not mine, it belongs to Jerry Peters, or it did when Thor did the work. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

01-18-2006, 02:21 PM	#9
Strider User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico Posts: 256 Thanks: 26 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ponyman, Check out the links section of the forum. There you will find a link for Thor (Ted Green). His site has a variety of pictures of his work that you can check out. I have had one done by him and it came out great. I have also seen a lot of others that he has done in the past in person. He used to have a picture of his mark on the site but I was unable to locate it. I am sure that if you send him an email he would be happy to send it to you. Sid. __________________ Sid. Patience is a bitter plant, but it has sweet fruit. ~German Proverb If it is made before 1930 ..........It is a prototype.

01-26-2006, 12:17 PM	#10
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Bill, I am with you...give me a 95% piece to a mint "sock drawer" or "attic" piece anyday... I am pretty sure Ted started giving folks the option to NOT have the 3-dots added. I am sure this option has lead Ted's business to grow to his current 6-10 month backlog...seems like the market DOES want refinsihed guns that are not so marked... Some of the good refinishers have "tell tale" signatures...if one sees enough work by folks like Gale Morgan or Mike Forte or Bill Christenson or Mike Krause...you can sort of see their work when they pop up at gun shows and gun shops. The folks at Simpson's sell Gale Morgan restoration, as such, all the time and advertise it as such...as Morgan restorations have their own collector neich. I think Forte has the DWM salt blue recipe very accurate...better than Morgan's work. And then fellows like John Martz place their name or initials on the restored piece. I have had the chance to see some of Ted's pieces resold at gun shows as well...his stand out as well. The honesty comes in to play when a current owner of an expertly refinished piece sells it to the next fellow collector. Either one is honest or not... Since some of these folks and the follks that came before them have been re-doing guns since the 1960's, these redone pieces will show oxidation and patina and wear in 2006...so the task of deciding original or not is more difficult with time passing...so one needs to look for other things...other than oxidation/patina.

01-26-2006, 02:50 PM	#11
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	I do these markings as an option as some folks were grinding them off anyway. They can be removed if you have the proper tools, but it is a bit of work to do it right. I do keep a SN list and I will always tell you if a specific SN and variation was done here if I am asked. It does also seem everyone wants engraving that really delays work I am starting to weed out those needing engraving and welding so I can reduce the back log. I hate the delay as much as some of my customers do. Natalie and I do appreciate all the work. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."