Wood Grips vs. Plastic Grips - When

[Marvin]

OK folks, since the threads a week or so ago about the black plastic grips and wood grips on the Mauser Luger. When were the black plastic used, what suffix letter did they begin in, why????? These are questions that have answers that were speculation, answers that are based on experienced collectors and the data they have obtained over the years. Well, I have been doing a little research into this question and have been in contact with the experts on Lugers in the US, Germany, Denmark, and Canada to find the correct answer. I did get the information and I feel this correct and almost form the "horses mouth" as the old saying goes. Here are the results:


This is not a new question and has been answered, but I can't find it in print in the newer Luger books. The answer was given by Herr August Weiss on the occasion of donating his personal 1900 Luger pistol to a renowned American collector and researcher. Herr Weiss's address at this presentation as translated into English:


"As you may know, the manufacture of both wooden and plastic grips had been out sourced by the Mauser works. The original plan of the SS-Gestapo (then in control of all black raw materials) had been not to authorize black plastics before the "u" suffix production block. As however, the truck from the C&C firm of Villingen (in peaceful times producers of hand-carved cookoo clocks) carrying wooden grips to the Oberndorf Mauser Plant had broken down with a flat tire in the Black Forest. The famous female record-flyer, Hanna Reitsch, volunteered to air-lift a bunch of pre-production plastic grips and magazine bottoms from the secret SS plant in the Holigoland Concentration Camp to Oberndorf. Grips and magazines were married with P.08s of the q, r, s, and t suffix blocks interspersed with wooden grips which had been transported in small lots by bicycle riders from the wrecked C&C truck to Oberndorf. Only in and after the "u" suffix blocks was black plastic used throughout."


I certainly hope this infomation will settle the question as to when the black grips were used and what suffix block. This would be good information to add to the General Information section of the Forum for future use and reference.


Marvin

[renaissance]

I have a 1940 "42".

It has a five digit serial # (84xx)

No suffix.

Can I asssume from this, that it was from the "very first" run of serial numbers ( prior to xxxxa )?


Whould this in turn mean (re: your research) that it WAS NOT originally issued with Black Plastic grips?

[Dok]

Marvin, I appreciate your reserch and August Weiss is certainly the "horses mouth". I presume that he is talking about the 1941 "q" suffix block, shortly after the introduction of the BYF toggle code. But I question his assertion that ALL 1941 & 42 military PO8s begining with the 1941 "u" block, left the factory with black bakelite grips. I'm sure that there are many of these with matching numbered & proofed wood grips, otherwise why do most authors estimate that only about 20% of this production had the BW grips? I feel that observation better supports the black plastic bottomed FXO mag from this point on.

[bill m]

Hi Marvin,

This is a nice story, but I have my doubts about it. A flat tire would not hold up production, nor would one wrecked truck, for the q, r, s, and t blocks, which would be 40 thousand guns. Data collected does not support this at all. My understanding is that there were more than one manufacture of wood and black plastic grips. Why do you find byf's with 2 matching magazines in the q,r,s,and t blocks with wood grips, but none with black plastic grips? I still think that from the data collected, that all grips were wood before the U block, and during the U block, both are correct. I guess you can use your own judgement on this, but Weiss's explanation just doesn't make that much sense to me. I could accept that something like this happened and a few were interspersed, but they would have to have serial numbered magazines. Also, I do not know the production numbers per day or month, but if this happened, why would one truck load by spread out over 40 thousand guns? I could accept that a few took place all in one letter block, if this was the case, but not over 3 or 4 or 5 months.

[bill m]

Hi again,

One other thing is the use of the magazines. There is a transition period from type 3 (122), to type 4 (fxo upside down), to type 5 (fxo right side up), to type 6 (black plastic) and they did not go on and on and on. They used each type of magazine up and they went on to the next type. Yes, there are stragglers now and then, but not large bunches. Everything is in order and follows order. That is what does not make sense about Weiss's comments, as they do not follow order, which I do not feel is correct. Just my observations and comments. Again, you have to have some sort of order to follow to learn how and when this stuff took place. This is mixing it all up, which would indicate that Mauser was on really short supply of materials and was using it as fast as it arrived. I can not believe they did not have a certain amount of reserve's on hand. I do not think it is a good idea to put this in the FAQ as fact, as I, and I'm sure a lot of other collectors do not agree with it, as the data of Lugers collected does not support this at all.

[Luke]

Given the information in Marvin's post, it seems possible that 1941 q, r, s, & t block Lugers might have been produced in any of the following four combinations:


1. Wood Grips & Aluminum Mag Bottom

2. Wood Grips & Plastic Mag Bottom

3. Plastic Grip & Aluminum Mag Bottom

4. Plastic Grip & Plastic Mag Bottom.


Unless is was rigid practice to match plastic grips with plastic mag bottoms, it seems to me that the above combinations could have been introduced in as many as 40,000 Lugers in 1941.


Am I missing something, or could this be the case?

[Dok]

rgrading the posting of Marvin's info in the General Information section. ">

Bill where are you getting your data on Serial numbers etc.? I would like to get a hold of some of the books or material you are using for my own reference library. I have been using Kenyon and Stills Books for references.


Thanks


Tracy

[bill m]

Hi Tracy,

I have 50 pages of Mauser Military data with 50 Lugers on each page, telling the serial number, type of grips, magazines, inside side plate number, polished inside, strawed parts, mauser hump and ect. It was given to me by a guy who collected it for over 40 years. All Luger production was in order. Things were pretty much used up before something new was put into production. Things went in order. You do not see blue rolled magazines late in 1940, but only early in 1940 -- things go in order.

That is quite a story. Mauser must have been using a real extreme example of the "just in time" supply principle. It seems that it would have been faster to have fixed the flat tire than to coordinate an airlift from one of Germany's test pilots. I would have loved to have seen the bicycle shuffle of trans-shipped Luger grips going down thru the Black Forest. It is also interesting to learn that the SS-Gestapo controlled all black raw material. At any rate it looks as though this question is cleared up one and for all.

[BILL]

In a perfect world, 'Just In Time' inventory works well in the manufacturing industry. I personally think that during war time there would be a lot of parts that were stockpiled as 'Just In Case' inventory.

Yes I agree. My point was if a flat tire on a delivery truck that occured a bicycles ride distance (25 miles?) from the factory could set in motion an emergency re-supply plan that entailed having a female test pilot make an air pick up and delivery of concentration camp made plastic grips in order to keep the production line moving, German production was more teniouos than I ever could have dreamed.

[John Sabato]