Safety Issue - Y E S !

[Luke]

I just assembled a new shooter from parts and test fired it, and it worked flawlessly. Makes you wonder about the need for matched parts in a Luger.

The only problem is that when I took it apart to clean and oil it I found that the axle which holds the breechblock to the toggle falls out. In normal operation it should be impossible for this pin to come out, but I am just wondering if it is possible, or even desirable, to do something to prevent this pin from falling out.

Am I wrong in assuming that this is not a safety issue?

Luke

[Tomathvl]

Luke,
I think it depends on what year frame it has.
I believe that's why the Navies have a larger flange and the Mauser hump was designed to keep the pin from falling out during firing. If I'm incorrect, someone will nail me.
Tom

[Luke]

Actually, the pin which falls out when the toggle is removed from the receiver and turned sideways is the short one which connects the breechblock to the middle link. The pin cannot, under normal operation, fall out; as it is partially blocked by the sides of the receiver. At least . . . that's my opinion. Just wondered if I was overlooking something. Mechanical failure of the toggle during firing seems hazardous.

I agree, if that rear receiver axle falls out during firing the shooter is in BIG trouble.

Luke

[Lugerdoc]

Luke, I agree that a loose forward toggle axel should not cause any problem when installed in the receiver. This is probably a result of wear to some of the mating parts. I usually have to try several of these axels, to find a tight one, when builting guns from parts. They even made oversized axels marked on the side "0.05, 0.10, 0.15 & 0.20), but I've never had to use one larger than 0.05 oversized. TH

[Luke]

Tom, Rick, & Tom -

Thanks for your comments.

Rick, I considered a hammer & anvil attack on that little pin but realized that I would just wind up destroying it, so I decided just to live with it . . . as is.

Luke

[Edward Tinker]

Luke, did you see that Joe Coe has some oversized pins on e-bay right now?

Ed

[Luke]

Hi Ed -

Yes, I saw that . . . . and I would not want to bid against you !

Actually, the smallest I saw listed was 0.1mm oversize and I think I need a 0.05mm; just a guess, but I suspect that the 0.1 would be too large.

Luke

[Luke]

Rick -

If I get a spare someday I might just try the hammer & anvil trick. Possibly if one should sneak up on it by striking lightly, testing, striking lightly, testing, etc. it just might work.

Luke

[jamese]

Luke,

I have a few spares, do you have a digital calipers ?

I have one that is marked "005" and one "015"

we can work something out in trade or $

Jim

[Luke]

Hello Jim,

Thank you for the offer. Yes, I have digital calipers. I don't know how accurate they are, but the part measures exactly 5.00mm.

I may have a solution, but I'll definitely get back to you if it doesn't work out.

Regards,
Luke

[Luke]

This might be boring to most members, but I have discovered a true safety issue with a middle toggle link I had purchased.

The link appeared to be in excellent condition when I received it with good blue, no rust, pits, dings, etc. The interesting thing about this part is that someone had, very professionally, polished off the manufacturer's identification (DWM, Erfurt, byf, etc. - whatever had been on there) and in the process had reduced the thickness of the part, but not noticeably so.

When I integrated it with a breechblock and a rear toggle link, I found that the pin drops out of the connection between the breechblock and the modified middle link. At first I thought that I just needed a slightly larger pin. Not so. The real issue was the fact that the holes in the two sides of the front fork on this middle link were elongated, an amount easily measurable with digital calipers. In fact the holes were both elongated and slightly widened. It appears that the metal is fairly soft and something (probably extensive shooting) had elongated and widened the holes on either side.

As I mentioned, the metal seems to be fairly soft, and it is my belief that continued shooting would eventually have caused metal failure with unpredictable consequences.

Figuratively speaking, I suspect that I may have dodged a bullet.
I have removed the part and will not ever use it in a shooter again.

Shame, because it looks nice mounted on a Luger with the shiny unmarked top.

Conclusion: When something doesn't fit properly there could be a hazardous reason.

Luke

[John Sabato]

An excellent report Luke... It sounds like the middle toggle of which you speak would be best made part of a gun that will never be fired like a cutaway version... now all you have to do is collect the rest of the parts ...

[Luke]

Hi John,

It is a problem. I have this part I just paid $38 for and I cannot use it in a shooter. Further, I am afraid to resell it for fear that some unsuspecting buyer might use it in a shooter and get hurt.

Oh, well . . . . . .

Luke

[John Sabato]

Luke, an alternative, for use in a shooter would be to have the elongated holes trued by reaming and creating a new pin that fits... certainly worth considering for a shooter class Luger... better than making a key ring charm out of it eh?

[Luke]

That would work, but the cost is probably more than the value of the part.

I'll just retire this one.

Luke

[lugerholsterrepair]

Rick, Smashing the toggle pin with a hammer...This would make it out of round. Tight on one or two parts of the circumfrence and loose on the opposite ends. I wouldn't recommend this....This might work better on your trailer hitch pin.
John, sounds like a workable solution IF IT'S NOT TOO FAR OUT OF TOLERANCES. Jerry Burney

[jamese]

Rick,
I also agree with John. The factory size is 5.0 mm. If its out of round say only a small amount. I think I have some oversized pins that can fit. Have it drilled out round again at a michine shop. ( I'm sure it can't cost that much)

I have the following oversize pins;


.05
.1
.15
.2

how far is it out of round ? if is out of round more than .2, you may be right that the part can't be used. But before you give up on it check with a michine shop.

Jim

[jamese]

Luke,

When I read your post again, you said

" process had reduced the thickness of the part"

the measurement accross the forward part of that link, at the pin hole, end to end is 12.9 mm.

you can check to see if, and how much the part was reduced and then deturmime your next course of action.

Jim

[Luke]

Jim -

The two holes in the front fork of the middle toggle link measure 5.04mm x 5.12mm. I suspect that I could use a larger pin, but I have no confidence in the toggle link at this point.

I suspect that the same person who ground and polished off the top of the link to remove the manufacturer's logo might have heated the metal causing it to go soft. The elongation of the holes might be a result of stress applied during firing to the now-softened metal.

Luke

[lugerholsterrepair]

Rick, That came across as a derogatory comment. If you meant that that way, I can certainly tell you it was taken that way. I never thought the forum was about making such remarks to another forum member.................

Rick, If you are looking for a fight please look somewhere else. I meant no harm whatsoever but think smashing a Luger toggle pin with a hammer to make it fit better is not the best approach to effecient gunsmithing. Certainly nothing personal and was simply responding to the post in the best fashion I know how.
Please accept my apology for any offense...Whatever it might have been. Jerry Burney