Way off Topic ! Andersonville Movie On TV Tonight

G.W. Gill · 10-17-2004, 02:26 AM

Please enquire about Camp Douglas and Elmyra. These and other such POW camps were funded. Great amounts were returned to the U.S. Treasury. The Cretans in charge of Confederate POW's recieved promotion and accolades. I have researched this topic thoroughly and invite all of you to spend a few minutes on your computer to get the real truth. This is not a dead issue or ancient history. There are people alive today, that as youngsters, knew survivors. To be captured by the U.S. was worse(could be)than to be captured by the C.S. Andersonville was a nightmare. The Conf. guarding them begged over and over. It was a nightmare for the soldiers. The U.S. wouldn't exchange or parole enlisted. Only officers got relief. Please remember and understand that the winners write the history books. Please search for the real truth !

Edward Tinker · 10-17-2004, 03:51 AM

I saw one of these on video a while back and it was interesting.

But, the fact is, that since the Federals had many more men available, it made sense to not parole soldiers. This might not be the most humane thing to do, but every rebel held in captivity was much worse for them, then for the Federals. The concept was to get the rebels to give up by attrition. At the beginning of the war, there were paroles on both sides, as the war progressed; it simply became the norm not to parole prisoners.

ed

G.W. Gill · 10-17-2004, 04:07 AM

Ed, I would not have exchanged. Had I been in charge, however, I would have fed and given them adequate attention . I am pointing out the starving and nonfeasance in the care of POW's for the sake of pesonal gain. In other words I am with you. It didin't make sense to exchange them.
I wan't to point out the horrible conditions in the U.S. camps in this post. Your point is extremely valid. OH, The whisky always gets the last last word or three or four.... And I have to own up to it tomorrow....

Edward Tinker · 10-17-2004, 04:11 AM

As is your points very valid...

Pretty bad part of our history, interesting to read and contemplate, but jeez, a bad part of our history on both sides, and like you said, the winners always make the history books...

Ed

G.W. Gill · 10-17-2004, 04:19 AM

I was surfing Conf. Vet mag articles and got emotional. Hey Ed! HI! Wow, There are other people out there. 4:30 in the morning. End of post.

Edward Tinker · 10-17-2004, 04:47 AM

Couldn't sleep, only 2:44 AM my time!

ed

Ron Smith · 10-17-2004, 11:41 AM

Ed, You need your beauty rest! As my wife says,
she tries to get her minimum 12hrs on her days off. I, on the other hand, could sleep for 12yrs, and see little improvement.

Ron

Roadkill · 10-17-2004, 03:36 PM

Back many years ago(1978)I lived in Americus Ga, Andersonville was only about twelve miles away. I would go by there very often. The commander was a Swiss named Wirtz. He was tried and hung after the war. Andersonville has only one small creek running through it, it was used for the only water source and latrine. The union prisoners were run by organized crime rings from large cities that charged the others for water, food, medicine, ect. The southern guards were those unfit for any other duty. Add to that no shelter, minimal supplies, hot Georgia summer, disease, typhoid, bad water, and a cold winter and the result was very bad. FWIW, the ratio of southerners that died in northern prisons was nearly as bad. Andersonville is a very somber place, especially late at night.

rk

G.T. · 10-17-2004, 04:48 PM

Hey RK! How are ya do'in! We should be just about ready to swap some more stuff soon!

Haven't hit any good shows lately...but ya never know whats lurking just around the corner! Best to you.. Andersonville, the TV movie, portrayed conditions as unbearable...I'm sure they were 1000 times worse in reality!! Til...lat'r.....GT

Navy · 10-17-2004, 06:04 PM

My second grade teacher, at Joseph Clisby School in Macon, Georgia was Miss Hazel Gewinner. Her father was a guard at Andersonville as a result of his having been severely wounded early in the war. When MacKinley Kantor's novel came out, Miss Hazel was very upset. She told us many times that things were terrible both inside and outside the camp as the economy had colapsed and the Confederacy could not supply food and other supplies for their own troops. Somehow, I suspect there was a fair amount of truth in the old woman's words.

Tom A.

George Anderson · 10-17-2004, 09:02 PM

In the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia we are short on sympathy for the yanks. Sheridan sent Custer and his ilk through our county and our farm in 1864 and burned almost every barn and mill in the Valley. They also stole or killed all the livestock and burned all crops in the field and any harvested grain. Alot of personal property was plundered and some women were raped.

My grandmother, who was from Maryland, carried a hatred for yankees until her death. In Shenandoah County one will still see more Confederate flags flying than in any county in the South.

Steve Richards · 10-18-2004, 10:16 PM

Gen. Sheredan's boast about the Shenandoah valley was that a crow flying over it would need to carry its own rations!

By the end of the war, Southern soldiers themselves were starving. They had very little to feed POW's.

I suspect that if every officer who was ever responsible for war crimes was tried in court, the ranks would be thinned considerably in all armies that have fought a war.

G.W. Gill · 10-19-2004, 01:10 AM

Steve, I think your suspicions are correct. On the subject of the Shenendoah Valley, the Fed. Govt. came in and burned the people out to create the Natl. Park. It was like sherman again. I have older relatives that dwell (fixate!) on this. Forced out at gunpoint and the houses torched. Your right, on sheredan's orders, not shermans during the Civil war. And that custer goof was glad to carry it off. The war just continued for these patriots. It is unbelievable what these people went through. However, when you meet and talk with one, you feel you have met the quintessential American!

Roadkill · 10-19-2004, 11:52 AM

Back many years ago I had a college professor by the name of Dr Roberts, she related the story about when she took a bus load of students from school on a trip down to Atlanta, I don't recall which one but it was a southern school. As they passed through the town of Milledgeville Ga a student from up north informed all that his family had a full set of silverware which his great grandfather had aquired there while serving under Sherman and he had always wondered where the town was located. Dr Roberts said no one talked to him for the rest of the trip.FWIW, my great grandfather served with the 4th Alabama Inf from 1862 to the battle of Atlanta, he lost his right leg there. Didn't keep him from having fourteen kids though. When the Rainbow Division was formed in August 1917 the unit was composed of National Guard units from the north and south whose fathers in many cases had fought each other in the War of Northern agression. Its four infantry regiments were respectively 165th (formerly New York's 69th); 166th (formerly Ohio's 4th); 167th (formerly Alabama's 4th); and 168th (formerly Iowa's 3rd).

rk

Edward Tinker · 10-19-2004, 03:32 PM

You rebels !!

As Gill said, it depends on who is the "winner". Who took what from where is always interesting. If you think of everything that was "liberated" from europe after WW2 and all the 10's of thousands of troops stationed there after the war...

I guess I shouldn't mention that I am a member of the Sons of Union Veterans...

Ed

Roadkill · 10-19-2004, 03:43 PM

GT, keep an eye or two open for me, I don't know what I want but will know when I see it. Thanks. Ed, I'm a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans, think our ancestors might have shot at each other? A good friend was hired as a civilan "contractor" (Blackwater) and is currently in Iraq, his wife left him a while back, kids are grown, he needed a place to store his hardware for a year. He is big time Civil War reenactor, brought it all over to me for safekeeping. I didn't count it all but my guess is that it was well over 100 original and replica era guns. There are Sharps, Enfields, Springfields, you name it. He also brought four safes to put it all in. I have the swords and a few of the rifles on display.

rk

George Anderson · 10-19-2004, 05:31 PM

It is just a few days past 140 years (7 October 1864) since Custer and his yankee cavalry came down Holman's Creek where we live and where my wife's family lived then.

They started the day about seven miles up stream where they burned everything, mill, barn, house and personal belongings included, that belonged to the Moores. Next they moved to the Wines' farm(Mennonites) where they killed or stole the stock, burned the crops and barn and looted the house of everything including bedclothes. Only Mrs Wine and her children were at home.

Three more farms and two more mills lay between the Wine's and the farm house we own. All the crops and barns were burned as well as one of the mills. Zerkel's mill(my wife's family) was spared as the old man went to the roof and tacked up the federal flag. He was later run out of the county by his neighbors.

After Zerkel's mill was spared the yankees moved 1 1/2 miles down stream to what is now our place and burned the barn and two wash houses. They also burned another barn upstream from us. All livestock was either taken or shot and burned.

This looting and destruction continued for several more days until all of Shenandoah county was laid to waste. Several wounded confederate soldiers who were recuperating at home and who took up arms against the yankees were executed either by firing squad or hanging. Although most of the looting was recorded, the rapes were allowed to pass quietly into history in order to protect the sensitivities of the women and girls who were the victims.

The fact that most of the year's crop was in the barns meant that most families had to resort to eating roots, berries and nuts that they were able to scratch up in the woods. Many starved and others deserted their properties to move in with relatives in Pennsylvania. Most of the population was, and still is Mennonite. The folks burned out by the yankees were largely pacifist.

If you ever travel up or down the Valley with yankee tags on your car and suffer a speeding ticket at the hands our State Troopers or Deputies, know that there was probably a bit of pleasure had in writing the citation. Even after 140 years it's hard to forget.

Edward Tinker · 10-19-2004, 07:01 PM

Yes sir, war stinks... and I'd still be PO'd too...

ed

G.W. Gill · 10-19-2004, 11:42 PM

I have a '60 Colt Army that my Wife's ancestors ,34th VA, relieved from my Dad's ancestors (18th PA.((Both Cavalry)). I aquired it before we married. I guess it is water under the bridge now. Unless we make ripples like I do. These stories are our rich history. They should be told so we can pass them on. On the subject of firearms. The Colt (100% original down to the nipples) shoots straight, just a little high. Not bad for a gun that has been slaughtering hogs for a century or more. I think the collectoble arguement comes in here. Cool holster wear at the front of the barrel where it rode in the saddle for many years. It just talks to you of history. (Roadkill, I have read some of the good natured bantering that wen't on between the WW1 Militia troops. I can't remember where though.)

10-17-2004, 02:26 AM	#1
G.W. Gill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeastern USA Posts: 369 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Way off Topic ! Andersonville Movie On TV Tonight Please enquire about Camp Douglas and Elmyra. These and other such POW camps were funded. Great amounts were returned to the U.S. Treasury. The Cretans in charge of Confederate POW's recieved promotion and accolades. I have researched this topic thoroughly and invite all of you to spend a few minutes on your computer to get the real truth. This is not a dead issue or ancient history. There are people alive today, that as youngsters, knew survivors. To be captured by the U.S. was worse(could be)than to be captured by the C.S. Andersonville was a nightmare. The Conf. guarding them begged over and over. It was a nightmare for the soldiers. The U.S. wouldn't exchange or parole enlisted. Only officers got relief. Please remember and understand that the winners write the history books. Please search for the real truth !

10-17-2004, 03:51 AM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	I saw one of these on video a while back and it was interesting. But, the fact is, that since the Federals had many more men available, it made sense to not parole soldiers. This might not be the most humane thing to do, but every rebel held in captivity was much worse for them, then for the Federals. The concept was to get the rebels to give up by attrition. At the beginning of the war, there were paroles on both sides, as the war progressed; it simply became the norm not to parole prisoners. ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-17-2004, 04:11 AM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	As is your points very valid... Pretty bad part of our history, interesting to read and contemplate, but jeez, a bad part of our history on both sides, and like you said, the winners always make the history books... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-17-2004, 04:47 AM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Couldn't sleep, only 2:44 AM my time! ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-17-2004, 11:41 AM	#7
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Ed, You need your beauty rest! As my wife says, she tries to get her minimum 12hrs on her days off. I, on the other hand, could sleep for 12yrs, and see little improvement. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

10-17-2004, 04:07 AM	#3
G.W. Gill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeastern USA Posts: 369 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ed, I would not have exchanged. Had I been in charge, however, I would have fed and given them adequate attention . I am pointing out the starving and nonfeasance in the care of POW's for the sake of pesonal gain. In other words I am with you. It didin't make sense to exchange them. I wan't to point out the horrible conditions in the U.S. camps in this post. Your point is extremely valid. OH, The whisky always gets the last last word or three or four.... And I have to own up to it tomorrow....

10-17-2004, 04:19 AM	#5
G.W. Gill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeastern USA Posts: 369 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I was surfing Conf. Vet mag articles and got emotional. Hey Ed! HI! Wow, There are other people out there. 4:30 in the morning. End of post.

10-17-2004, 03:36 PM	#8
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,634 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Back many years ago(1978)I lived in Americus Ga, Andersonville was only about twelve miles away. I would go by there very often. The commander was a Swiss named Wirtz. He was tried and hung after the war. Andersonville has only one small creek running through it, it was used for the only water source and latrine. The union prisoners were run by organized crime rings from large cities that charged the others for water, food, medicine, ect. The southern guards were those unfit for any other duty. Add to that no shelter, minimal supplies, hot Georgia summer, disease, typhoid, bad water, and a cold winter and the result was very bad. FWIW, the ratio of southerners that died in northern prisons was nearly as bad. Andersonville is a very somber place, especially late at night. rk

10-17-2004, 04:48 PM	#9
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,528 Thanks: 1,334 Thanked 3,711 Times in 1,014 Posts	Hey RK! How are ya do'in! We should be just about ready to swap some more stuff soon! Haven't hit any good shows lately...but ya never know whats lurking just around the corner! Best to you.. Andersonville, the TV movie, portrayed conditions as unbearable...I'm sure they were 1000 times worse in reality!! Til...lat'r.....GT

10-17-2004, 06:04 PM	#10
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	My second grade teacher, at Joseph Clisby School in Macon, Georgia was Miss Hazel Gewinner. Her father was a guard at Andersonville as a result of his having been severely wounded early in the war. When MacKinley Kantor's novel came out, Miss Hazel was very upset. She told us many times that things were terrible both inside and outside the camp as the economy had colapsed and the Confederacy could not supply food and other supplies for their own troops. Somehow, I suspect there was a fair amount of truth in the old woman's words. Tom A.

10-17-2004, 09:02 PM	#11
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	In the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia we are short on sympathy for the yanks. Sheridan sent Custer and his ilk through our county and our farm in 1864 and burned almost every barn and mill in the Valley. They also stole or killed all the livestock and burned all crops in the field and any harvested grain. Alot of personal property was plundered and some women were raped. My grandmother, who was from Maryland, carried a hatred for yankees until her death. In Shenandoah County one will still see more Confederate flags flying than in any county in the South.

10-18-2004, 10:16 PM	#12
Steve Richards User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Beaverton, Oregon Posts: 487 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Gen. Sheredan's boast about the Shenandoah valley was that a crow flying over it would need to carry its own rations! By the end of the war, Southern soldiers themselves were starving. They had very little to feed POW's. I suspect that if every officer who was ever responsible for war crimes was tried in court, the ranks would be thinned considerably in all armies that have fought a war.

10-19-2004, 01:10 AM	#13
G.W. Gill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeastern USA Posts: 369 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Steve, I think your suspicions are correct. On the subject of the Shenendoah Valley, the Fed. Govt. came in and burned the people out to create the Natl. Park. It was like sherman again. I have older relatives that dwell (fixate!) on this. Forced out at gunpoint and the houses torched. Your right, on sheredan's orders, not shermans during the Civil war. And that custer goof was glad to carry it off. The war just continued for these patriots. It is unbelievable what these people went through. However, when you meet and talk with one, you feel you have met the quintessential American!

10-19-2004, 11:52 AM	#14
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,634 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Back many years ago I had a college professor by the name of Dr Roberts, she related the story about when she took a bus load of students from school on a trip down to Atlanta, I don't recall which one but it was a southern school. As they passed through the town of Milledgeville Ga a student from up north informed all that his family had a full set of silverware which his great grandfather had aquired there while serving under Sherman and he had always wondered where the town was located. Dr Roberts said no one talked to him for the rest of the trip.FWIW, my great grandfather served with the 4th Alabama Inf from 1862 to the battle of Atlanta, he lost his right leg there. Didn't keep him from having fourteen kids though. When the Rainbow Division was formed in August 1917 the unit was composed of National Guard units from the north and south whose fathers in many cases had fought each other in the War of Northern agression. Its four infantry regiments were respectively 165th (formerly New York's 69th); 166th (formerly Ohio's 4th); 167th (formerly Alabama's 4th); and 168th (formerly Iowa's 3rd). rk

10-19-2004, 03:32 PM	#15
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	You rebels !! As Gill said, it depends on who is the "winner". Who took what from where is always interesting. If you think of everything that was "liberated" from europe after WW2 and all the 10's of thousands of troops stationed there after the war... I guess I shouldn't mention that I am a member of the Sons of Union Veterans... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-19-2004, 03:43 PM	#16
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,634 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	GT, keep an eye or two open for me, I don't know what I want but will know when I see it. Thanks. Ed, I'm a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans, think our ancestors might have shot at each other? A good friend was hired as a civilan "contractor" (Blackwater) and is currently in Iraq, his wife left him a while back, kids are grown, he needed a place to store his hardware for a year. He is big time Civil War reenactor, brought it all over to me for safekeeping. I didn't count it all but my guess is that it was well over 100 original and replica era guns. There are Sharps, Enfields, Springfields, you name it. He also brought four safes to put it all in. I have the swords and a few of the rifles on display. rk

10-19-2004, 05:31 PM	#17
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,531 Times in 788 Posts	It is just a few days past 140 years (7 October 1864) since Custer and his yankee cavalry came down Holman's Creek where we live and where my wife's family lived then. They started the day about seven miles up stream where they burned everything, mill, barn, house and personal belongings included, that belonged to the Moores. Next they moved to the Wines' farm(Mennonites) where they killed or stole the stock, burned the crops and barn and looted the house of everything including bedclothes. Only Mrs Wine and her children were at home. Three more farms and two more mills lay between the Wine's and the farm house we own. All the crops and barns were burned as well as one of the mills. Zerkel's mill(my wife's family) was spared as the old man went to the roof and tacked up the federal flag. He was later run out of the county by his neighbors. After Zerkel's mill was spared the yankees moved 1 1/2 miles down stream to what is now our place and burned the barn and two wash houses. They also burned another barn upstream from us. All livestock was either taken or shot and burned. This looting and destruction continued for several more days until all of Shenandoah county was laid to waste. Several wounded confederate soldiers who were recuperating at home and who took up arms against the yankees were executed either by firing squad or hanging. Although most of the looting was recorded, the rapes were allowed to pass quietly into history in order to protect the sensitivities of the women and girls who were the victims. The fact that most of the year's crop was in the barns meant that most families had to resort to eating roots, berries and nuts that they were able to scratch up in the woods. Many starved and others deserted their properties to move in with relatives in Pennsylvania. Most of the population was, and still is Mennonite. The folks burned out by the yankees were largely pacifist. If you ever travel up or down the Valley with yankee tags on your car and suffer a speeding ticket at the hands our State Troopers or Deputies, know that there was probably a bit of pleasure had in writing the citation. Even after 140 years it's hard to forget.

10-19-2004, 07:01 PM	#18
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,966 Thanks: 2,066 Thanked 4,595 Times in 2,116 Posts	Yes sir, war stinks... and I'd still be PO'd too... ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-19-2004, 11:42 PM	#19
G.W. Gill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeastern USA Posts: 369 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have a '60 Colt Army that my Wife's ancestors ,34th VA, relieved from my Dad's ancestors (18th PA.((Both Cavalry)). I aquired it before we married. I guess it is water under the bridge now. Unless we make ripples like I do. These stories are our rich history. They should be told so we can pass them on. On the subject of firearms. The Colt (100% original down to the nipples) shoots straight, just a little high. Not bad for a gun that has been slaughtering hogs for a century or more. I think the collectoble arguement comes in here. Cool holster wear at the front of the barrel where it rode in the saddle for many years. It just talks to you of history. (Roadkill, I have read some of the good natured bantering that wen't on between the WW1 Militia troops. I can't remember where though.)