Mystery .45 cal. Luger Pistol...?

Pete Ebbink · 04-13-2003, 11:40 PM

In John Walter's book, The Luger Story, on page 71; there is a photo of a .45 luger pistol. The gun's serial number is not mentioned.

The photo credit is given to a Mr. Joseph J. Schroeder.

Does anyone know which .45 luger pistol this is/was ?

Do I assume it belonged/belongs to a European collector (i.e. Mr. Schroeder) ?

Is this .45 pistol another serial number, other than # 2 or the Norton Gallery pistol ?

Might this be the serial # 5 that Michael Reese mentioned in his book, Luger Tips, that he personally held...?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Ron Wood · 04-14-2003, 12:31 AM

Joe Schroeder isn't European, but a very well known and authoritative American collector and author. He has edited and published 5 editions of the "Collectors Digest" and written many articles. I don't know for certain, but I am willing to bet that the photo credited to him was of the Norton Luger since it clearly shows the Crown/N proof on the left receiver.

Big Norm · 04-14-2003, 07:30 AM

Mr Schroeder is very much an American and I think that he prefers Mannlichers. To my knowledge, there are only two .45 cal Lugers. A second one is in a museum in Shrievport, La. I doubt that it would be taken out of its museum case for pictures.
Big Norm

Lugerdoc · 04-14-2003, 09:40 AM

Joe S. is a life time Chicago area resident. In a past speach to the NAPCA convention, he mentioned draging his dad down to Marshall Fields to purchase his first auto loading pistols as a preteen. Some guys just know what they want at an earlier age than the rest of us. Tom H.

Pete Ebbink · 04-15-2003, 10:43 PM

Thanks, all, for setting me straight on Mr. Schroeder.

J. Walter also mentions in his book a serial # 14 .45 luger pistol...

Can anyone educate me on this # 14. Has it been subsequently determined not to be "real"... ?

I am still haunted by Mr. John Allen (at Gun Blue Books, Inc.) telling me that three (3) .45 luger pistols are known...but he was not at liberty to state serial or owner name...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

George_F · 04-25-2003, 01:44 PM

I beleieve that Mr Schroeder let one of the bigger trade mags (Guns & Ammo?) fire the gun to test its accuracy. It is allegedly 'priceless' because of its rarity. For anyone who thinks that it might take away from its value (they alluded to fact that it had not been fired before that) I think its uniqueness would win out.

Didn't someone do a limited run of special order .45 Lugers? For like $3000 each some few years ago? My thoguhts stray to Interarms, but they've been gone a while. Any ideas?

John Sabato · 04-25-2003, 02:30 PM

To the best of my knowledge...

Outside of custom John Martz work that converted two 9mm Lugers into one .45 ACP custom gun, there have been three post war producers of .45 Caliber Lugers...

The first type is by the Mauserwerke in Oberndorf... but it doesn't look much like the original 1907 test guns... It looks like a 9mm Luger on steroids... and I think leans toward Swiss Luger styling...I believe only one gun was made in prototype and it was last known to be in the private collection of Rolf Gminder in Europe...

Second, is Mike Krause... but the price is at least FIVE TIMES the $3000 mentioned earlier in this message thread... Here is a photo of Mike Krause's excellent work:

and the last is a Gunsmith in Europe... I don't have the info about who or how much, but they were much like the Krause guns in that they are custom made and with a high price...

These are photos from a European magazine article and unfortuately this is all the information I have on this series of pistols... If anyone has any more, I would appreciate knowing more details.

lugerholsterrepair · 04-25-2003, 05:59 PM

John, Yes, Mike Krause makes these excellent pistols. I understand the wait is several years tho...From a magazine article I read some years ago he also produces a baby in .380. I would love to have one but I am afraid I do not have an extra $fifteen grand laying about...I have to say, I do like the looks of Mikes pistol much better than the Mauser. Jerry Burney

Herb · 04-26-2003, 10:31 AM

I was in Sacramento last August visiting with the kids and also looking for Lugers. I visited with Gary Thiry on J street who runs a gun parts business to see if he had any decent magazines. We were talking about Lugers and he told me of a friend of his that had found a guy in Provo Utah that had an original .45 cal Luger and he was trying to get it away form him. I was surprised to hear this as it might be one of the few that exist. I had forgotten about it until this thread popped up. I'll try to contact Gary and see if he has any more info on this one.

Herb · 04-26-2003, 11:03 AM

Well, I called Gary. The friend of his that had the info followed up on it and it turned out to be one of those stories that had been passed down too many times and got better each time. The .45 in Provo doesn't exist, shame, it could have been a real treat if found to be true.

Jim Keenan · 05-06-2003, 11:11 PM

Hi, guys,

Can anyone jog my memory on the guy who made a couple of .45 Lugers using a regular 9mm frame, but getting the big round in the magazine well by dispensing with the detachable magazine and using a system like the 1911 Steyr Hahn. No, clips, though, it just loaded by pushing the rounds in from the top. I don't know how/if it really worked, but one of the gunmags wrote it up as the greatest invention since the light bulb.

Jim

Edward Tinker · 05-06-2003, 11:32 PM

Wyatt is the man or at least the gun, I believe is what you are talking about. One of the forum members has one for sale on his site, also I know that Ralph Shattuck had one for sale last year for $2,000 I think. Was pretty cool looking, big bore, you loaded it from the top.

Ed

drbuster · 05-07-2003, 08:46 AM

Spoke to Mike Krause recently about this thread. He says the wait for one of his 45's is 6 months, not "years", the cost is $15000, with case, cleaning rod, and extra clip $2500 extra.

John Sabato · 05-07-2003, 10:36 AM

Herb,

I wonder how many of those custom .45 Lugers Mike has made?

You should invite Mike Krause to join the Lugerforum...the next time you speak with him.

and thank him for his clarification on costs and waiting time.

The Wizard · 05-14-2003, 11:10 PM

I have serial number 10!

Alvaro · 06-16-2003, 12:33 PM

Gents, I'd very much appreciate any input on how Mr Krause makes his .45 Lugers. Does he make them with new parts or does he use some original ones (if so, how many?)? Thanks. Ã?Âlvaro.

Edward Tinker · 06-16-2003, 01:35 PM

Alvaro , he makes them from scratch, rumour has it that he was able to get the dimensions from one of the orginals and "copy" it. Very cool.

Douglas, do you shoot her at all? And if so, how good does she shoot?

Ed

Alvaro · 06-16-2003, 06:42 PM

Thanks a lot, Ed. That copy bussiness had to be mind boggling; hundreds of exact measurements!. At first I thought the 15k bucks price was insane, but now I'm beginnig to think perhaps it is not. What I am now wondering is what the point of owning such a thing would be... Ã?Âlvaro.

Edward Tinker · 06-16-2003, 07:57 PM

Yes, I can't imagine! One of those is high on my list if I win the lottery.

A John Martz 45's (made from two 9mm's) go from about $4,000 - $6,000 (and I am sure up), but one of them is high on my lotto list too!

Ed

Navy · 06-16-2003, 08:35 PM

Guys,
You ain't gonna win the lottery, but you can ALWAYS get more money. Sell some trinkets, drink cheaper booze, suck up to the boss for a raise and GO FOR IT!

Tom A.

04-13-2003, 11:40 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Mystery .45 cal. Luger Pistol...? In John Walter's book, The Luger Story, on page 71; there is a photo of a .45 luger pistol. The gun's serial number is not mentioned. The photo credit is given to a Mr. Joseph J. Schroeder. Does anyone know which .45 luger pistol this is/was ? Do I assume it belonged/belongs to a European collector (i.e. Mr. Schroeder) ? Is this .45 pistol another serial number, other than # 2 or the Norton Gallery pistol ? Might this be the serial # 5 that Michael Reese mentioned in his book, Luger Tips, that he personally held...? Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

04-14-2003, 12:31 AM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Joe Schroeder isn't European, but a very well known and authoritative American collector and author. He has edited and published 5 editions of the "Collectors Digest" and written many articles. I don't know for certain, but I am willing to bet that the photo credited to him was of the Norton Luger since it clearly shows the Crown/N proof on the left receiver. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

04-14-2003, 09:40 AM	#4
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Joe S. is a life time Chicago area resident. In a past speach to the NAPCA convention, he mentioned draging his dad down to Marshall Fields to purchase his first auto loading pistols as a preteen. Some guys just know what they want at an earlier age than the rest of us. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

04-25-2003, 02:30 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	To the best of my knowledge... Outside of custom John Martz work that converted two 9mm Lugers into one .45 ACP custom gun, there have been three post war producers of .45 Caliber Lugers... The first type is by the Mauserwerke in Oberndorf... but it doesn't look much like the original 1907 test guns... It looks like a 9mm Luger on steroids... and I think leans toward Swiss Luger styling...I believe only one gun was made in prototype and it was last known to be in the private collection of Rolf Gminder in Europe... Second, is Mike Krause... but the price is at least FIVE TIMES the $3000 mentioned earlier in this message thread... Here is a photo of Mike Krause's excellent work: and the last is a Gunsmith in Europe... I don't have the info about who or how much, but they were much like the Krause guns in that they are custom made and with a high price... These are photos from a European magazine article and unfortuately this is all the information I have on this series of pistols... If anyone has any more, I would appreciate knowing more details. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

04-25-2003, 05:59 PM	#8
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,762 Thanks: 4,863 Thanked 3,101 Times in 1,427 Posts	John, Yes, Mike Krause makes these excellent pistols. I understand the wait is several years tho...From a magazine article I read some years ago he also produces a baby in .380. I would love to have one but I am afraid I do not have an extra $fifteen grand laying about...I have to say, I do like the looks of Mikes pistol much better than the Mauser. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

04-14-2003, 07:30 AM	#3
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Mr Schroeder is very much an American and I think that he prefers Mannlichers. To my knowledge, there are only two .45 cal Lugers. A second one is in a museum in Shrievport, La. I doubt that it would be taken out of its museum case for pictures. Big Norm

04-15-2003, 10:43 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Thanks, all, for setting me straight on Mr. Schroeder. J. Walter also mentions in his book a serial # 14 .45 luger pistol... Can anyone educate me on this # 14. Has it been subsequently determined not to be "real"... ? I am still haunted by Mr. John Allen (at Gun Blue Books, Inc.) telling me that three (3) .45 luger pistols are known...but he was not at liberty to state serial or owner name... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

04-25-2003, 01:44 PM	#6
George_F User Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 30 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I beleieve that Mr Schroeder let one of the bigger trade mags (Guns & Ammo?) fire the gun to test its accuracy. It is allegedly 'priceless' because of its rarity. For anyone who thinks that it might take away from its value (they alluded to fact that it had not been fired before that) I think its uniqueness would win out. Didn't someone do a limited run of special order .45 Lugers? For like $3000 each some few years ago? My thoguhts stray to Interarms, but they've been gone a while. Any ideas?

04-26-2003, 10:31 AM	#9
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I was in Sacramento last August visiting with the kids and also looking for Lugers. I visited with Gary Thiry on J street who runs a gun parts business to see if he had any decent magazines. We were talking about Lugers and he told me of a friend of his that had found a guy in Provo Utah that had an original .45 cal Luger and he was trying to get it away form him. I was surprised to hear this as it might be one of the few that exist. I had forgotten about it until this thread popped up. I'll try to contact Gary and see if he has any more info on this one. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

04-26-2003, 11:03 AM	#10
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Well, I called Gary. The friend of his that had the info followed up on it and it turned out to be one of those stories that had been passed down too many times and got better each time. The .45 in Provo doesn't exist, shame, it could have been a real treat if found to be true. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

05-06-2003, 11:11 PM	#11
Jim Keenan User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 184 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hi, guys, Can anyone jog my memory on the guy who made a couple of .45 Lugers using a regular 9mm frame, but getting the big round in the magazine well by dispensing with the detachable magazine and using a system like the 1911 Steyr Hahn. No, clips, though, it just loaded by pushing the rounds in from the top. I don't know how/if it really worked, but one of the gunmags wrote it up as the greatest invention since the light bulb. Jim

05-06-2003, 11:32 PM	#12
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Wyatt is the man or at least the gun, I believe is what you are talking about. One of the forum members has one for sale on his site, also I know that Ralph Shattuck had one for sale last year for $2,000 I think. Was pretty cool looking, big bore, you loaded it from the top. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

05-07-2003, 08:46 AM	#13
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Spoke to Mike Krause recently about this thread. He says the wait for one of his 45's is 6 months, not "years", the cost is $15000, with case, cleaning rod, and extra clip $2500 extra.

05-07-2003, 10:36 AM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Herb, I wonder how many of those custom .45 Lugers Mike has made? You should invite Mike Krause to join the Lugerforum...the next time you speak with him. and thank him for his clarification on costs and waiting time. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-14-2003, 11:10 PM	#15
The Wizard User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 67 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have serial number 10! __________________ The Wizard Air Dropable AND Ground Recoverable Necat omnes! Deus suos agnoscet. The application of the proper amount of high explosives can solve any problem. War is an act of force and to the application of that force there is no limit! So say the philosophers (Carl von Clausewitz b 1780 d 1831) of war.

06-16-2003, 12:33 PM	#16
Alvaro User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Madrid, Spain Posts: 25 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Gents, I'd very much appreciate any input on how Mr Krause makes his .45 Lugers. Does he make them with new parts or does he use some original ones (if so, how many?)? Thanks. Ã?Âlvaro.

06-16-2003, 01:35 PM	#17
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Alvaro , he makes them from scratch, rumour has it that he was able to get the dimensions from one of the orginals and "copy" it. Very cool. Douglas, do you shoot her at all? And if so, how good does she shoot? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-16-2003, 06:42 PM	#18
Alvaro User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Madrid, Spain Posts: 25 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks a lot, Ed. That copy bussiness had to be mind boggling; hundreds of exact measurements!. At first I thought the 15k bucks price was insane, but now I'm beginnig to think perhaps it is not. What I am now wondering is what the point of owning such a thing would be... Ã?Âlvaro.

06-16-2003, 07:57 PM	#19
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Yes, I can't imagine! One of those is high on my list if I win the lottery. A John Martz 45's (made from two 9mm's) go from about $4,000 - $6,000 (and I am sure up), but one of them is high on my lotto list too! Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-16-2003, 08:35 PM	#20
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Guys, You ain't gonna win the lottery, but you can ALWAYS get more money. Sell some trinkets, drink cheaper booze, suck up to the boss for a raise and GO FOR IT! Tom A.